Whoa, you're King of Dusk? I would've never expected somebody like you to stop by this shit hole, lol. First Tachikoma, now you. Damn , should've said that earlier. I assumed. (From your original post.) That you were another one of those people who may have gotten Megaten information from that faulty, ill conceived Megaten article contained at Hardcore gaming 101. The 101 article is a good piece of written work. I just feel that it's a bit misleading. Good to know someone remembers me, lol. I've never been one for talking online and was pretty quiet on the various megaten boards. Seems there is a lot of misconceptions on both sides. I assumed you were one of the people who started with Persona 2 since you talked about it so much. Also this place is not a shit hole. It's a nice site. Lot's of good stuff. I remember Shivalva (He had a SMT IF avatar) Me and him argued a lot. I can't even remember about what anymore. & Masakado (Spooky avatar). I used to look up to them. I always wanted to partake in the convos that I saw most of y'all had at both gamefaqs, megaten haven, and atlus, but I knew I would never be able to keep up with y'all, & I still wouldn't, lol. (I'm just a lurker of no importance at haven & atlus.) I was in the same boat. I've been a member of the community forever and have played A LOT of megaten but I have a big weakness. I can't speak Japanese. That means I could never join in their conversations because I had no idea what they were talking about. I mean, I beat the games, but for me they were very much a excellent gameplay experience since I couldn't understand the words. I mean, the stories are awesome from what I read in faqs (Thank god for Re-Miel) but it sucks not being able to read them. I could still enjoy the gameplay though, it's why I love Megaten. Good music, good art, good stories, good gameplay. Generally a good package. Even the new ones USUALLY have good art/music (Persona 3 = bad art for the most part, tehre's a few good things. I want Kaneko back!) It seems that Masa doesn't waste his time with stupid videogame boards anymore. Last I saw, he was translating those megaten novels. (He's right when he says they're trashy. I was expecting much more from the books.) Never been one for boards but I don't think of them as stupid I must admit. Honestly, after Nocturne from the way he talked it sounded like he "grew up" and dropped the whole videogames thing. If that ever happens to me, please hit me with a two by four until I get some sense knocked into me. I haven't seen Shivalva since the American release of Nocturne. I know he moved to the Atlus boards. You on there? Did he just vanish? I too started with the original Persona. (Didn't we all?) However I went the opposite direction & worked my way up with Soul Hackers & the like. Rather than going to the original source. I didn't finally play Majin Tensei (The strat games) & the two Super famicom SMT's until I started emulating. I even have the sega cd version emulated. I have played all of the main Megaten games. (I don't consider last bible or devikids, or whatever the fuck it's called as megaten either.) I just haven't beaten all of them. (Most of them take me over 80 hours to complete.) You really should. It's like a pilgrimage for all Megaten fans to go back and complete the old games. It's actually the newer ones I find hard to play. I know you like them but honestly me and Soul Hackers/IF never got a long. Could never get into the whole devil summoner thing. I found they were SMT with MUCH less intelligent story, worse art and while complex gameplay mechanics generally mechanics that made things messier as opposed to deeper and more fun. (As opposed to nocturne, which removed a lot of such features and added in press turns making it VERY tactical and interesting.) Have you played SMT NINE? That game seems to be set in the original timeline. (Or at least the original timeline that began with the Super Famicom games.) It at least feels more inline with SMT & SMT II than SMT III did. I own it, haven't played it but I've seen/read a lot. While it had more to do with thje SMT 1/2 timeline it's much less like it then SMT 3. Very different art/thematics. SMT3 while visually and on the surface not a lot like 1/2 (Not cyberpunk for example) it's very much in the spirit of SMT 1/2 and thematically/ideologically is VERY much the successor to SMT 1/2. What's the plot line for Spiral Nemesis anyway? I beat the game, and I got this crazy ass ending where the world exploded all of a sudden. (After a seemingly happy ending. The original Persona is probably the only megaten I've played that did not have a bittersweet ending.) If I recall Majin Tensei exists in an alternate universe that exists outside of the SMT timeline (1999 Japan destroyed by nukes) , and the SMT IF timeline (1999 Japan destroyed by The Oracle of Maiya.) No idea on the plotline, can't speak Japanese. Good that you beat it though, it's an amazing game. Great gameplay, good music, lots of fun, I love it. As for the universe Majin Tensei is in a different universe. I don't know the details sadly. Hopefully there will be a translation done. Have you tried Maken X/Maken Shao? I love the art direction. Sure, it's not a megaten game, but it feels more like a Megaten game than the current batch of Megaten games do. *Points up to his list of beaten Megaten games* Love it, big fan of Maken X. I really wanted to play Shao but I would need to mod my PS2 to play PAL. (I use a JPN ps2 to play Japanese games) Don't worry about coming off as stuck up. I probably come off as a stuck up bitch myself ever since I worked my way from K7, to FSR, SC & finally MS. Thanks. But I admit I am elitist. I will be spending a lot of time talking about how much I dislike Soul Hackers/If.... Just kidding of course. :D I just haven't beaten all of them. Mainly due to time. I used to play SMT II regularly, but I never really got far due to no translation at the time. I dropped the original because of the frustration I explained above. I was planning to buy me some big ass guns, lol. Hate to sound like a broken record... but you really should beat them. I mean, if they weren't long and brutal I would be offended, that's what SMT is supposed to be. (One of the reasons Nocturne made me proud is that it held to that ideal.) Heh, no biggie. I used to insult Innocent Sin & Eternal Punishment like hell all the time, back when I used to post at gamefaqs. I went by the name Krhyme Assassyn at game faqs. Ima pretty stuck up "know it all" bastard. Whom everybody hates. I'm hated so much that most people can't even remember my name. (I originally went with Topdrunkee, but my account was banned within two weeks, lol. I've been banned in over 12 different websites/forums.) I usually get mistaken for that Kouli guy. (The guy who makes all them useless faqs that spoil the entire plot.) Whenever I do say something that people agree with. (I don't know why either. We have completely different personalities.) Wow, you're like the opposite of me. I'm very quiet and passive online. I never like starting fights. Doesn't mean I'm not opinionated just means I don't want to be a dick. I mean, if I started an argument everytime I disagreed with someone online I'd never get anything done. In fact, you sounded exactly like the way I used to sound like when ever I'd talk about the Persona 2 games. (Back in the days when I would post at the Persona 2 Eternal Punishment boards.) I hated the gameplay, the simplified battle system. I hated almost everything save for the characters. Although I finally realized how much I liked SIn/Punishment after playing through that shit fest, Devil Summoner 3. I didn't bother with DDS 2, but the game's story sounds interesting as hell. Unfortunately I was utterly disappointed by the first DDS. (I forced myself to beat the game, because I paid full price for it.) My problem is that playing new bad ones won't make me like Persona 2 more (I think they're good games, just not as good as good real megaten). They'll make it seem better in comparison. But since SMT 1/2/3 are better then Persona 2 they tend to get top bill in my mind. I didn't mind DDS2. It had good art/music, and a lot of good story ideas. Failed to go through with them though (Went too anime) and the gameplay was pretty blah. But after playing Persona 3 it seems so much better... No doubt. I don't deny that the background stories are at least decent. In fact I think the background stories/timelines are good. It's the plots that are used in the actual games that piss me off. IMO, what really hurts the stories of MGS games is the way they tell them. When you look at games like Nocturne or Killer 7. They both treat their audience as smart & mature enough to figure out the plot themselves. They both show & display to you the ideas that they want get across to their audience. (Although I believe that K7 doesn't really have a message outside of the political arc. K7 could've had one, but I believe the "meaning" it may have had got lost while trying to salvage the story.) Honestly most movies/books/games I play have bad storytelling and talk down to the audience. It drives me insane when stories say things like "As we both know, blah blah"" because the characters know it and they only say it because they want to inform the audience, but no real person would say that. Drives me insane. MGS is a lot like DDS, good ideas but poor execution. That's one of the saddest things about DDS, it was so close to being good Megaten. With just some deeper gameplay, and mature storytelling it could have gone far. I mean, it was dark, it was evil, it was bittersweet. The endng to DDS1 was very good. I mean, they think they're going to heaven and then they are crushed brutally by ending up in a worse hell then they were in. it made me happy. MGS, Mgs what bothers moi about MGS is how the games treat their audiences as if they're dumb & ignorant. So in order to get their point across. The games preach to you non stop like the French man from that lame ass Matrix movie. (I forget which one. I have relatives who worked on that film.) That's not the end of it though. What bothers me about MGS is it's hypocritical message. The games tell you to live for yourself, and to be free from outside influences. Yet the game (Solid Snake no less.) is telling you straight up how to live your life. How can anyone take something like that seriously when the messenger doesn't even bother to practice what they preach? Yeah, but honestly, most shit is like that. Trying to give you a message about your life and not be hypocritical is difficult sometimes. I dunno, I just feel kinda bad for MGS. But now I have to make a confession... I like the Matrix movies. Yes I know, they're trashy philosophy but in my mind that's only because it says things a lot of the time in the wrong way. What they say is well thought out a lot of the time and I really enjoy it. (The Matrix has a lot of points of two characters talking back and forth and I find it does that well. Neo/Morpheus, Architect/Neo, Oracle/neo, etc.) And I love cheesy kung fu and cyberpunk so I gotta admit some bias. You don't have to agree, I often find myself defending the matrix against people. I'm just a fan. P3 took the shadow people concept to an extreme. To the point that the game comes off as nihilistic. Well it is honestly. It's actually one of the few things I like about it. I mean, the main villains are nihilists plain and simple. I find the concept amusing. The execution... needed a LOT of work. That new shitty ass Persona anime misunderstood the concept of shadow people so they came up with some new & "improved" concept of the "shadows". BY "improved" what I mean is that the new shadows for the anime are devoid of any meaning or purpose. THe only purpose they serve is to be a big new baddie to kill. Haven't seen the anime, but I'm always warry. SMT anime's tend to suck. If I read you correctly, You did mention that you preferred EP right? If so than you're the practically the first person I've seen other than myself who preferred EP. While you're correct for the most part. I feel that the plot for the P2 games are still more complex than most. Persona games just go about their complexity in a completely different way. (Albeit the themes that Persona covers are less important, and more personal than a Vanilla SMT game.) I like IS gameplay more but EP I like.. -The story (I find it’s darker and more mature. The ending more bittersweet and the fact that it’s all the main characters fault so entertaining.) -The difficulty. IS was insanely easy, I found EP one of the more challenging Megaten games. -The adults. I hate teenage characters, they’re so immature. Drives me crazy. EP’s characters were more mature. Persona games are more complex, when I attack them, it’s related to older games. I just hold SMT (Not including if) as the height of Megaten. It’s really what it’s all about in my mind. I see the Persona 2 games. (Including the original.) More as time capsules of 90's contemporary Japan. Which would in effect, make them more mainstream. However the original Persona trilogy was still tolerable (For a mainstream title), because they at least resembled a SMT IF styled game. (SMT IF timeline is pretty much the light hearted Megaten games.) SMT IF games are still more "dark", and "heavy" than the current crop of Megaten titles. I consider IF more light then Persona 2. I actually lump IF in with Devil Summoner, probably due to gameplay. Thematically it’s more persona I’ll admit. Well anyway, back to explaining why Persona was like a time capsule. Persona games have always been about the current generation of youth. As such, the games are filled to the brim with many Japanese sub/pop culture influences. Much of the cast from the original Persona trilogy were actually inspired from real Japanese celebrities. Including some foreigners such as Steven Seagall, and Japanese halfs like Ollivia Lufkin. Ollivia for that matter was used as the model for Lisa Silverman's "Bikini line" friend, and Lisa's background story (MUSES) is almost a direct rip off of Oliva's real life history. Me and Japanese, and even North American pop culture are very disconnected. Just doesn’t interest me so I never really pay attention to it. Innocent Sin seems to have the most in common with P3, because IS was the most blatant when it came to it's japanese pop culture references. Besides the Ollivia connection detailed up above. I also saw Japanese glam rock, Tetsuya Komoru/ Tsunku, celebrity gossip, sports talk, etc. references. Pointless trivia I'm sure, but all the the tiny tidbits of Japanese pop cultural trivia adds up to make quite an engaging experience that I haven't really seen much of before. Actually I have, but that prior experience was called Persona Be your True mind. (Although I originally played it as Persona Revelations....... Ne need to speak of it again.) The original Persona came off as less "teeny boppy" & "pop influenced" than IS, because the current "youth" of Japan wasn't as materialistic yet. The original Persona is set during the breaking point of our current Japan of today. (Before many of the current youth subcultures formed.) Reiji Kido was a Johnny's Jr. reference, and Yuka Ayase herself was a nod to Namie Amuro. Who herself, indirectly created the ko/gon girl sub culture. Never knew any of this. Interesting. I’ve always been a weird kid, well outside cultural norms. Not a loner emo type or anything, I just didn’t give a damn. I enjoyed my games and my philosophy and didn’t much care for the popular stuff for the most part. EP is more bearable than IS, because the main cast are adults. As such they don't act as childish. (The exception being Maya Amano, & possibly Ulala Serizawa.) While it's true that Persona 2 was the most melodramatic Megaten. (P3 now holds that crown.) I can't really hold anything against it, because that was the point of the games. The P2 games chronicled around a cast of fragmented personalities trying to become whole. ("You can change your way you live") I’m rarely a fan of character driven stories because I tend to dislike the characters. I find them whiney, overly emotional and stupid. It makes it very unentertaining because I can’t relate to them. Actually it was one of the few things I really liked about DDS. Gale was an intelligent character. He didn’t do or say stupid things. He was rational, intelligent, and talked and acted with forethought and proper planning unlike most characters in everything who run into situations half cocked. I very much enjoyed him, and hell, most of the cast of DDS was head and shoulders more intelligent then most characters in most everything, Devil Summoner and Persona games included. They could correlate info and reach conclusions and deal with problems. It was shocking. I hate the bungling preteen’s in so many games. Part of the reason why I like Persona 2 has to do with the fact that I was living in Japan when the two P2 games originally released. I thought it was cool as hell seeing how accurately Persona 2 portrayed Japan. As opposed to P3. (Which basically models itself after generic anime stereotype fantasy Japan.) I find that scary. Everything I hear about Japan scares me. It comes off as an extremely wound up society that’s all about order, hierarchy and politeness but once the doors are closed it’s crazy, jaded, and cynical. Maybe it’s an incorrect but it’s what I get. Read this gigantic ass post where I go into more detail about Persona's plot. forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=702&start=23" target="_blank">http://killer7.6.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=702&start=23 (Although I can imagine that you could punch many wholes through my post. I do believe that it's a better account of persona's plot than most.) I consider myself a philosophical person but oddly I’m not very philosophical. Let me explain… I attempt to deconstruct things to the relatively simple points that the author was trying to make and then express them in a simple way that could be fit into a bullet point. I find most analysis of stories tend to go too far and reach for far too much when the author only intended for a small number of points to be important. It’s why I’m doing Poli Sci instead of Philosophy, I find Philosophy tries to hard to find meaning in things when there is none. Political Science is very pragmatic about it. I’m not saying I’m correct but that’s the way I look at it. I mean, if I was to talk about Persona, it’d be like this Story about… -the different emotional facets of people -How we’re a combination of different facets. -How to be true to yourself -Analysis of the human psyche -Commentaries on the how absolute success creates boredom (Guido at the end) -Commentaries on teen social groupings and pressure and people being ostracized (this especially in Snow Queen quest) -General commentaries on human emotion. Greed, anger, sloth, envy etc. Short concise, to the point. Wouldn’t make a great philosopher would I?  One of the things I liked about K7 was that it could be looked at in a lot of different ways and there were a lot of different messages. Only a few were central, but there was a lot of small commentaries. I'm of the firm belief that in the near future. The only "real" Megaten games will be Shin Megami Tensei itself. The problem here is that a new shin megaten only comes once every 6 to 10 years. Megaten died to me. The very moment when they announced Persona 4. I can’t blame them, they’re a business. Persona 3 sold well and they go where the money is. What I find is that most people say “Megaten’s dead to me” or that “There’s no more good megaten games anymore.” When they haven’t even beaten old ones. Seriously. If the old ones are great, beat them. Complain about no new ones once you’ve beaten all the good old ones in my mind. A new games the same as an old one, they’re just you games you haven’t played. People just have this weird obsession with you have to play the new even if you haven’t played the old just because it’s new. SMT’s not over for a person until they’ve played them all, then they can want more. Not bitching at you specifically but that attitude annoys me. Venerating older games but not even bothering to beat them is something the Megaten community does a lot and it comes across as hypocritical. I know you'll love or at least dig Silver Case & "Flower, Sun, & Rain". I never even realized that almost the entire cast in Silver Case got killed off during the game. When people die in Suda's games. They usually just die. That's it. There is a rivalry between these two girls, but the only time you ever hear about it is when the other girl interrupts your conversation by killing the other girl that you were speaking to. The game never bothers to explain to you their "dirty laundry", because it's none of your business. Like Killer 7, Silver Case basically just shows events unfold without breaking into some long "epic" melodramatic speech. Thank god. I hate when games do that. Can’t an event happen without needing to be explained. That’s sloppy writing and an assumption that everything revolves around the main character. Things I hate. The funny thing about those three. Is that one of them doesn't exist. (Physically.) The other two. Well I can't even explain them. One man is a convicted terrorist. The other was a former head of a political party, that dissolved during the aftermath of the "Silver Case". He's also considered a terrorist. The point of FSR. Or as I call it, the "cover story". Is to discover who the airplane bomb terrorist is. I'll just say that the terrorist. Is the person whom you'd least expect. It was unexpected for me at least. (Hint: He makes an appearance in Killer 7.) The purpose of the airplane bombs are just as surprising. That's just the basics, unfortunately I'm still trying to understand FSR's plot so I won't bother to try to explain those two. I will say that it ultimately leads down to a rivalry between the Sundance Shot family & the Hachisuka family. The Hachisuka's all died during the Silver Case. (The remaining Hachisuka goes by a completely different surname) The intro gives you the impression that Sumio & Toriko might be lovers. An interesting touch about the intro is how Sumio & Toriko never look directly into each others eyes, or ever acknowledge each other. In the Intro you see Toriko glancing at Sumio, but Sumio never notices. All of this is actually foretelling to you the type of story that FSR is. Abstract surrealism. (Sumio never notices, because he can't see her.) In fact the couple times when he actually does see her. (During a dream.) Sumio just assumes that she is just a random girl whom he probably slept with in the past. Toriko on the other hand. Believes that Sumio is some kind of saviour who will break the time paradox of Lospass resort. I know it sounds cliche, but you just need to see the way the plot unfolds. I'm sure Killer 7 sounded just as cliche, before you actually played it. (I know I thought so. I wasn't expecting anything from the plot.) Hopefully I’ll get to play some Suda games, they sound quite interesting and something I really need to try for myself. Actually, killer 7 sounded exceeding weird and surreal to me. “A assassin with multiple personality disorder fights a bunch of mutant suicide bombers who are made mutants by a weird demon looking Chinese guy who has the hand of god.” To be fair, not a lot of games sound like that. At least the games I play and I get into some weird shite.  I actually tried Killer7 because I was told it was bizarre. I’m naturally attracted to bizarre games. You can say that again... especially The crawling Chaos's true form. I don't hold the Lovecraft & the Jungian influences against Megaten at all. In fact, I thank them for it. Megaten is what got me interested in them in the first place. Megaten has pretty much influenced almost every aspect of my life. I even learned how to dress better after seeing how well put together (& subtle) most Megaten outfits are. Megaten is definitely one of the series that made me interested in finding out more. It’s been a constant source of information and entertainment for me. And I am all about the references. HP Lovecrafts a bit of a sticking point for me because I love his writing but you can’t recreate his style with just images. You need to have his language, that’s what he’s all about. His monsters aren’t disturbing, it’s how he describes the emotions behind them. He’s so very excellent with the English language. Gotta admit, I like the clothing style but never went with it. I’d need to lose like 20 pounds to pull of most Megaten styles. That and I’m in a small city, not a lot of stores that sell anything as modern as the styles in Megaten, we’re pretty backwater here. Suda 51 originally caused a paradigm shift when he alienated the Twilight Syndrome audience when he made Moonlight Syndrome. Suda killed off the entire cast. In the most brutal way possible. What we have to consider is that the people that Suda killed off had personalities that were just as complex as the characterization found in the Persona games. So as you can imagine the characters who Suda killed off had legions of fans. You can imagine the disappointment that occurred once the Moonlight Syndrome ending came around. Suda’s doing FatalF4? Now this I’m interested in… I always appreciate a writer who has the balls to kill characters. So few do, and when they do it tends to be trite. A good writer has to mercy but doesn’t kill frivolously… Here's the thread with some of the Moonlight Syndrome ending vids I made. forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=721&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15" target="_blank">http://killer7.6.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=721&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15 Moonlight Syndrome has a more straight forward story than most of Suda's work. (Save for No More Heroes>) What I love about Moonlight Syndrome is how twisted the Moonlight Syndrome "love story" is. We have people committing double homicides by self immolating themselves & the people around them. We see girls getting killed by rapists, only to be saved by a contract. The contract becomes void once she comes into contact with the guy who lust's for her. That guy only lust's for her, because she looks like his dead sister. His dead sister was actually his lover. Yes, I hope you can imagine how twisted & fucked up Moonlight Syndrome's plot was. Even though it's actually the most straight forward & mainstream plot that Suda has made. (Well NMH wins the new title for the most mainstream plot. Although NMH's plot isn't that mainstream at all. It's not good either, but uh I'll shut up for now.) I must admit I’m a fan of twisted stories. It’s one of the reasons I liked K7, and Silent Hill 2. I watched the endings for SMT & SMT II on youtube. Does that count? Nah I'm playing. Shit though if both you & I think that Megaten. (The original Shin Megami Tensei 1, II, & III.) are the most profound games of all time. Than that means that there's no other game out there that have surpassed it yet. That kinda sucks, because I'm aching to relive the experience I had when I first played Deus Ex & Nocturne. Unless we haven’t found them. Deus Ex is great, Silent Hill 2 is great. Profound is tricky though. Good is common, profound, I’ll have to think about it. Suda games are as thought provoking, but I can say with all certainty that they lack the class & sophistication that Nocturne provided. I've always seen Suda's games as more of a trashy version of Megaten. (The TRUE megaten that you represent.) This forum represents that, as this is probably the most vulgar site that gamespy actually hosts. (This is the only g-spy site is required to have a warning label in it's front page.) Well, Killer7 is pretty vulgar. But I give it points for doing that and being intelligent. I think K7 is intelligent, as is Nocturne. They both treat their listener as being intelligent. Nocturne is classier though, it’s much more focused, direct (Whether that’s good or bad), and thematically coherent. It know’s what it is going to say and it’ll be damned if it’ll be distracted with frivolous side things. It’s a very unified piece. I admit, Killer 7 has touched me in a way few games have. I have a very high opinion of it. Suda's games, especially Silver Case are the closest I've seen to a similar SMT, SMT II like setting. (Minus the demons. Although I have seen a pic of a demon trying to eat Sumio's head off in SC 25 Ward. I think that part was meant to be surreal.) Ironically, Deus ex is my closest. Especially Invisible war. Nocturne deals a lot with the creation of the world (As does SMT1, 2’s just a depressing story, I love it.). Deus Ex is about the creation of a new world. It has it’s own list of Kotowari’s and you could choose each of them. It’s got the ambiguity too, there’s little true good or true bad in Deus Ex Invisible War or Nocturne Here’s hoping Deus Ex 3 lives up to the name. I have some hope gameplay wise. Ivisible war got worse reviews/sold worse then 1 because they simplified it and pissed off the fanbase, hopefully they’ll go back to the If you like K7 than you'll obviously like the Silver Case series, because K7 is basically a watered down rip off of Silver Case. SC's plot takes place entirely within Japan. The game is a collection of stories. Many of them don't relate & some of them do. Killer 7 would've been similar had K7 not been restricted to just the political plot. FSR is just as good, it's not as dark as SC, but I think you'll might dig it. Since Killer 7 isn't as dark as SC either. I dunno which I’d like more from what you’ve said, they all look good. I really enjoyed K7’s surreal and crazy side, it’s a style I enjoy having accompany my philosophy. But I would also appreciate a more serious story. Hmmm…. I've actually been a lurker this entire time. Reading most of y'alls posts. I can't really recall any right off the bat though. I remember how hardcore cool Kelly came off. He was just like his avatar, lol. I pretty much left Megaten in the past. I'll come back to megaten once another "Nocturne" title arrives, but that's only when that happens. As I said before, Megaten’s not over as long as there are good Megaten games you haven’t beat. SMT, Megami Tensei 2 (Gotta beat that personally), etc. There’s still some great stuff. Also try deSPIRIA, the games amazing. I really enjoyed it. That's exactly how I view Killer 7, but than again. Those are usually the only type of stories that I'm into. (Most of the time at least. I like Yakuza/Like a Dragon & Persona as well. Which are melodramatic, but I felt that they were digestible. Rather than irritating.) I love that kind of story, I also enjoy some strange sci-fi/fantasy. (Ever heard of the model game Warhammer 40k? It often becomes trashy action but when it’s serious it’s great dark gothic sci-fi. Actually, Emperor of the Fading suns is great, medieval Europe in space. Very fascinating, very dark and poetic.) I also enjoy the political stories. Ogre Battle being the best example. Plus I enjoy a more clichéd story from time to time as long as I can find something cool in it. I found the irony of her supposed god/protector even more delicious, because Yuko truly believed that she could set things straight. She even promised the Hitoshura. You're the first person I've seen to speak about Nocturne like this, but than again you're... you already know. The King. LOL, now I know you'll love how dark the Silver Case games are. If you liked seeing how the "good guys" failed. You truly are interesting. At least now I know why. You're King of Dusk. I probably would've rolled out the red carpet. Maybe, I don't know. Lol, you talk about me like I’m some sort of returning hero. I’m just a guy who liked Megaten, I never did a lot. I never wrote the awesome SMT1/2 translations like Re-Miel, I didn’t do the faq’s and rom translations like Masakado, I didn’t try and translate Majin Tensei 1 like Tom. I just sat around and listened. I couldn’t even say a lot, again, do to my lack of knowledge of the Japanese language. I just played good games with cool art/music and absorbed whatever tidbits of story knowledge I could because they were so awesome. I think the funniest part about that scene is that no matter what. Futomimi bites the bucket. I also find it to be quite an intoxicating experience to see Chaiaki sic three arch angels on your ass if you don't agree with her philosophy for the new born world. (The smt boss music just made fighting the arch angels even more weird.) It is an awesome scene (I love the Yosuga kotowari, I admit). And I do ever so enjoy the SMT music. Very thrashy, which I can never object to. (Hmmm, maybe I should toss on some Dethklok… nah, I’m in a Daisuke (Guilty Gear music composer) mood. His new track for BlazBlue that we’ve seen is beautiful if you like power metal) http://youtube.com/watch?v=QiXL6NWzVXM It's nice to see that you're a man of your word. Most people would've hated to see the "hope" die out with no remorse or apology. In a typical game the Manikins would've overcame all circumstances thrown their way despite not being eligible to petition a reason for the new born world because, they're not human. I a typical game, the Manikins would've been able to bend or break the rules. Well that’s the beauty of true SMT, it’s a vicious, dark world. It doesn’t pull punches and the good guys don’t always win. Things are dark and horrible and while there is hope it can only be found by embracing the gods or selling ones soul at the edge of a sword. (Lucifer has a great speech in SMT2 before you fight him if you’re on neutral of how strong you are to face the gods themselves. But of how you have become an avenging demon who walks a path of blood and death and will become as the monsters you fight and lose yourself in a sea of blood.. It’s much like the speech the law hero gives you before you face him, when he speaks of how true neutral is a fleeting dream and you are going to become a bloodthirsty demon yourself.) Only the strong persevere and the weak die. Ahhhh, refreshing SMT. Oddly makes me think of Silent Hill, mainly 2. Talk about a dark world. Everyone goes insane and dies from being haunted by their own sins (My favorite scene is when the girls on the stairs of fire, and asks if you’ll save her. When you just stay quiet, she walks off and dies with a sense of defeat, not even fighting it.). It’s so dark and well thought out, I really enjoy it. About my demon comment. I was mainly referring to the lesser deities not known as YVWH, The great one, God. I see the great one existing as a ball of energy. (This is his pure form. Untainted by human imagery, & or explanation.) "Thy" changes shape & form in order to accommodate our indoctrinated beliefs of what we assume god to look like. Feel free to explain how far off base I am? The SMT pantheon is not well explained. The basic concept, as you probably know, is that all the gods lived in heaven but YHVH cast those who would not follow him, the pagan and heathen gods to hell and became supreme ruler (A very paradise lost concept. I enjoy how it ties in well with the way Christianity demonized other religions. Again, very paradise lost.). The demons are trying to regain their lost place in heaven. God is shaped by our belief is somewhat implied in SMT2 but it doesn’t seem so clear cut. It’s very much god is god and like the demons has been around for basically ever and created man. That’s the way I interpret it One interesting thing I find is how people comment on the game being anti-Christian, which is kind of correct. However Jesus isn’t mentioned and in fact it is almost implied that he never arrived (Though there are crosses). It seems very much to me like a world where Jesus never arrived and thus things are Judaic, which explains YHVH’s more militant and less benevolent behavior. In fact, in an interview with Cozy he does mention that the games based of Judaism. You may have known this but just in case you didn’t its interesting food for thought I apologize in advance for not addressing your other points about Killer 7. I just wanted to discuss more about Megaten. No problem, always love to chat about SMT with someone. I've said many times in this forum that I'm more loyal to megaten than I am to Suda 51 games. Makes me glad that there are still good loyal men. Megaten has my loyalty over all games. Sorry about the delay. I also apologize if I get less detailed as I go along, I get tired and writing long/intelligent responses gets harder. I’ll get to the second half later but if you wanna chat some more we could use a IM client. You got MSN? BTW, something I'm adding in after. Ever annoyed with people because they can't grasp the concept of an intelligent videogame? Is it so strange? they're all like "only books can be intelligent" and don't even give it a shot in their ignorance? Drives me insane. Means you can't talk about something intelligent because they immediately close their minds when they hear videogame. I jsut lie and say it's a book now, they listen, and say it's good. Moment you say videogame, bam, they ignore it. Pisses me of.

Sorry for the late reply. I haven't logged into this forum for a bout a week. I got a headache after replying to your posts for some reason. I don't know why either. My head was ringing. I couldn't play Nobunaga's Ambition properly, because of it. If I remember correctly I think I recall seeing you arguing with that one guy,Sayckeone from the Atlus forums. lol. I assume you're so used to people not knowing what they talk about that you're surprised when someone does? Personally I still give people the benefit of the doubt but every day it gets a little harder... I usually do give people the benefit of the doubt. When I mentioned Suiko & Phoenix Wright I was actually doing it more as a kind gesture. I know from experience that most people can't handle the Ogre games. (Gameplay wise.) Back in the day saying that you're a Megaten head would've automatically labeled you as a hardcore gamer who can handle any stat heavy game. (Such as the Ogre titles.) However those days are long gone. You know like you said earlier. Megaten often refers to Persona 3 now. Or any other PS2 megaten. But then a good story is only one facet of a game, and honestly in my mind less important then the gameplay. I mean, it is still a game, and thus it must be fun to play! You're preaching to the choir. This forum recently lost one of it's most enigmatic & entertaining posters, because I'd often get into arguments with him about how games are supposed to be games first. He felt that games should strive to be more artistic/movie like. In order to grow as a medium. (The argument occurred in the KOF XII thread.) When you're in a leading role people expect you to have all the answers, which is kind of unfortunate. However to be fair you do know the most about Suda stuff it seems. (When I was reading posts on the games I'd sift through for yours since they were the most informative.) I'm used to being a leader in real life, but affairs are immensly different irl & online. Online I'm talking about all these theological/political affairs & what not. In real life I normally act as a leader type doing typical thug gangsta shit. It's kinda funny when you think about it. Most cats who know me irl would probably never imagine moi owning & operating a website. Especially not one about a videogame. Or at least not a game like Killer 7. The problem I have is that answering inquiries and working on the website at the same time tends to wear I out. Since I have to create graphics, write the text & lay out the site content as well. I never intended for K7 SIN to turn into some kind of hub. I originally envisioned it as just some small site that I would eventually abandon once a bigger Killer 7 site came around. (I assumed that Killer 7 would be the next Silent Hill in terms of web communities.) The problem with the Killer 7 community is... You know about Romance of the Three Kingdoms right? I'll use the Wu Kingdom as an example. (I'm a Weist btw. I'm just using Wu as an example.) The Killer 7 community doesn't have any Zhou Yus or Lu Xuns. We only have Lu Meng's, which is what I consider myself. Lu Meng is mostly brawn, but he's also fairly intelligent. He's more of a jack of all trades type. The Megaten community had Zhou Yu & Lu Xun (Masakado & Re-miel. Shivalva is more like a Lu Meng imo. I'd probably classify you as a Bu Zhi if I were to label you as a Wu politician/general. A man of ability greater than most, but isn't as recognized as the top dogs Zhou Yu & Lu Xun.) Suikoden community had Sima Yi, lol (Blue Moon. Blue Moon was originally a member of the Suikosource staff. He then splintered off to form his own site & took the majority of Suikosource's community along with him. Sort of like how Sima Yi's sons formed the Jin.) My problem is that although I do a decent job of spreading info to a very small portion of the Killer 7 fanbase. I would be doing much better had I had someone of higher authority to direct me. (Like Sun Quan to Lu Meng.) However people like that just don't exist in the English GHM community yet. Kitano Smith seems very knowledgeable, but I see him more as another Lu Meng or in his case Zhang Liao. Zhang Liao was said to hold off an entire Wu attack using only 800 men. Kinda like how Kitano Smith is able to piece together bits & pieces of Kill the Past's timeline with his limited exposure to the other Suda 51 games. But basically Yin is female and Yang is male. Yin is subservient and weaker then Yang. As such this whole equal thing most people think of is an attempt to rewrite history so China doesn't seem so sexist in the past (Which like most other cultures it was). That's funny, because that's always how I interpreted Yin & Yang when I was a kid. I just went with the yin & yang concept because the K7 Plot faq did. (The Plot faq & K7 SIN use the same basic ideas. We just branch off into completely different directions.) Let me guess the revision occurred during Mao Zedong right? Most Chinese are working hard on trying to restore the culture that Mao tried to erase. Well actually I'm taking it the wrong way I guess Yin & Yang's original meaning was perverted in order to come off as more modern. I dunno, I think Kun Lan represents the one who is portayed in the negative light at any time and thus is different from a duality that is less ideologically charged. IE. If everyones blaming Japan, Japan's Kun Lan, if it's all the US fault according to everyone, the US is Kun Lan. Perhaps I'm wrong but Kun Lan does represent the villanized. And personally, I'm a Tsao Tsao man. Don't get me started in Xiang Yu and Liu Bang.... Very Happy Mengde is the bomb. I prefer Nobunaga though. Although I feel that Mengde was more talented than Nobunaga. There were many times when Nobunaga came close to being eradicated. Fortunately for him he had a shit load of luck & charisma. One can't deny how both Mengde & Nobunaga had that machiavellian charm. I look up to both of them. Cao Cao "I'd rather betray the world then let the world betray me." Oda Nobunaga "If the bird does not sing, kill it." However on a note, Chinese propaganda. I don't know about South Korea but I know that the Chinese populace are basically not listening to it any more. They've seen so much crap that they know their government is evil and any attempts to say otherwise are false. Have you seen the movie Hero? It's basically pro-CCP propaganda. The message? "We're very very evil but if we get ousted we'll have the warring states again." Kinda of shows how badly viewed a government is when it's own propaganda admits it's evil and goes with a "devil you know" argument. Wow now this makes everything go full circle. So China must be in the same exact boat as Japan. (Both countries are often accused of being militaristic & re militarizing.) This could probably explain why Abe was able to make amends with China during his time as the PM. It seems that China & Japan have a lot in common. As for South Korea, it depends. http://www.usinkorea.org/ They tend to preach hate against the U.S. & Japan, but at the same time they don't really mean it. South Korea usually changes their tune whenever the United States makes plans to relocate their troops to guam, japan & other neighboring nations. I think it's typical behaviour that stems from nations that have been constantly defeated through out history. Philipines also has a "victimization" complex where they'll constantly blame their own misfortunes on another. It's quite bothersome, because most of the propaganda gets to the youth. Overly nationalistic youth are some of the most annoying people I've ever met. (Especially people in their young 20's) They don't listen to reason. No matter what country they come from or what ethnicity they may be. (The United States is a fine example. Look at the way they speak about Middle Eastern people.) Overly nationalistic youth will always be the ones who do the most damage in terms of foreign perception & relations. Lately South Korea has been directing their hate train toward supposed historical inaccuracies propagated by China. I wouldn't take it seriously, because SOuth Korea also claims that the United States & Japan are trying to undermine Korea with supposed historical inaccuracies. One such example is the Dokdo issue. Well, Japan does have a large army and quite high tech army. However they're problem is they don't have any power projection (It's a defense force) and they lack complex command and control functions (They rely on the US) They have been rearming though. We'll see how that goes. Yeah, the SDF. It's said that Japan is the country that spends the 2nd most (or was it 5th?) on military expenditures. IMO that's the problem right there. It's not normal for a country to be restricted to a defense force. I don't believe that the SDF has enough maneuverability to outlast a total conflict. The SDF is mainly there to improvise for the United States army. This is what's referred to in Ghost in the Shell 2nd gig when the tachikoma's claim that Japan is the shield & the United States is the sword. This is also an allusion to a similar line that Oda Nobunaga once said to Tokugawa Ieyasu. Oda was the blade, Tokugawa was the shield. With China getting more powerful and Russia starting to become nuiscance again the US sees Japan as it's first line of defense, and it's strategic base of operations point for dealing with Russia/China. That was also Japan's original purpose post WW II. I remember a year back that Japan was trying to create a treaty/alliance (I forget which. It's similar to the US/Japan agreement. Where each country backs up the other force in case of attack.) between Taiwan, Japan, & Australia. Australlia didn't want anything to do with it. Understandably so. (They don't want to make China feel needlessly antagonized. Especially since, imo China is more valuable partner in the future.) I must have completely missed that point. The ghosts of the two old men said 80 million Japanese dead, and said retribution would come. Am I missing something here? You have to fill in the blanks during the Chris Mills conversation shortly before he gets killed. Mills mentioned that Matsuken controlled the following of 10 million secret japanese members. Garcian then mentions about how Matsuken could influence the direction of a decision by organizing a concentrated block vote within a city or a state. The president was still debating to himself about whether or not to release the fireworks. Note: Secret Japanese members doesn't mean that they're Japanese. Secret Japanese members refers to people raised under Japanese ideals & pov such as those who were taught at Coburn elementary. Garcian himself is, or was a "secret Japanese member". Here's more background information about the U.S. in Killer 7. http://killer7.3dactionplanet.gamespy.com/quo.htm The United States of America Since the foundation of the United States of America, many organizations and political parties struggled for power. Although history recognizes the United States of America's government as a democratic republic, it is rumoured that a shadow government really runs the country. The U.S. Government The U. S. Government holds contemptible feelings toward Japan due to Toru Fukushima's decision to severe all ties with The United States. The Killer7 receive their missions from the U. S. Government, through Christopher Mills. The U.S. Opposition Party Behind the scenes, the U. S. Opposition Party is connected with Kun Lan's catastrophe from the EAST. The Opposition Party's goal is to help Kun Lan crush the United States. The U. S. Opposition Party controls the U. S. Immigration Bureau. (They greatly contributed to Curtis Blackburn's & Pedro Montana's black market organ trade ring.) Being a vassal state isn't so bad. It's working out pretty well for my country. (I'm Canadian) Smile My older half bros & sister is Canadian or Quebocois to e exact. They come from a French background or something. I'm not sure if Vassal state is the correct term for Okinawa, but it's the only one I can think of. That is strange. Taiwan's not bitter because during the occupation Taiwan is the one country Japan didn't perform atrocities on. They actually ran a pretty good operation there from what I heard. I feel that it has nothing to do with being bitter. Taiwan probably made a move on Japan, because they saw an advantage. I feel that the world mainly operates through concessions & advantage. From what I gather most of the countries in Killer 7 are only making a move on Japan, because they see an advantage & they want to reap the benefits. Only the U.S. & Japan seem to be bitter towards one another. Which is why Killer 7 focuses solely on those two countries. This excerpt from HIK 7 also adds more to the whole "concessions & advantage" theme that I see going on in K7. http://killer7.3dactionplanet.gamespy.com/topsecret.htm#4 What was implied by the true "-*test*-('") of Japan's value"? Jeffers (The caucasian) and Dudley (The African American) --the U. S. representatives at the meeting in the Kaku Building-- were sent to the meeting in order to break off negotiations with Japan. They were expendable pawns, who were sent to end the negotiations by killing the Japanese representatives--and being killed themselves.As a result, Japan was thrown into total chaos. Some wondered whether Japan's disorder was the President and the U. S. Government's intention from the start. However, the President's delay in response was due to the prolonged settlement on the distribution of Japan's land and natural resources, with European countries. The true "-*test*-('") of Japan's value" for the U. S. Government was nothing more than determining what benefit the U. S. would receive from Japan's destruction. If the U. S. had received fewer concessions and benefits from Japan's destruction, the Fireworks are likely to have been launched. Russia isn't terribly hostile towards Japan from what I read, they're just going imperialist again. They're having problems since they're dirt poor and the Americans and the EU always have a close eye on them. Old habits die hard hm? A lot of Russian woman actually run away to Japan. (I've heard that there's also quite a number of Russian women at China, but I wouldn't know.) Hostile, no. Although the state of Political affairs could always change at the drop of a hat. Japan is basically nobody without the U.S.A. (Japan in Killer 7 annulled their relationship with the United States.) Since Japan would no longer have the manpower to deter a foreign invasion without the U.S.A.'s help. I think it would only be logical for other countries to make a move on Japan sooner or later. (So long as they found a viable reason that justifies their attack on Japan in order to gain enough support to invade.) Russia already owns Japanese territory. http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200501/15/eng20050115_170734.html (Russia seized several Japanese islands during the end of WW II.) The Russians were actually one of the many reasons that the Atomic bombs were used on Japan. Had the US not have bombed Japan. Russia could've assimilated more Japanese territory as their own. When a nation is on the verge of dying out. A nation typically gets assimilated into it neighbors when the nation in question has lost all power of sovereignty. The way I see it. Japan could've easily been split into two like Vietnam during the Nam or the two Koreas that we have today. Had the United States not used the Atomic bombs. China's going for it but playing smart. They learned from the US example. Don't conquer the world, buy it. Most wars aren't fought on the total war front these days anyway. (That's typically a last resort.) These days we're more about information warfare & controlling the future based off of the information & doctrine that we teach our current youth. The funny thing is that's exactly what most people in the states worry about. (Well, the ones who have an average understanding of politics at least.) People often worry about a country from the East that could economically & militarily compete with the U.S. If another country were able to rival both of the U.S's combined economy & military. The scenario that I see is that the U.S. would no longer be able to create puppet states & wage false wars anymore, because they would then have to contend with a foreign nation that has access to as many resources as the United States. Not that there's really anything to worry about. Historically, China has always stuck to it's own region. China had the capabilities to conquer the Western world. (Or at least parts of it.) It's just that China never really saw the need to. Considering how big China already is. I read the more what Harman/Kun seem to be is open to interpretation. Yup what you said, Post Modernism. The problem is that most people want answers, because they see Killer 7 as a straight forward tale. Rather than an expression of ideas. Most people won't accept the "They are whatever you want them to be" answer. So I try my best to come up with the most logical conclusion that Suda may have been going for. If you check up on some Japanese interviews (Specifically Gpara) with Suda 51. (Before he made Killer 7.) Suda actually does admit to making up several characters who were never meant to be figured out. I remember with Moonlight Syndrome, Suda straight up admitted that Yayoi Itsushima & Mithra from Moonlight Syndrome are meant to be mysterious, and that you're not supposed to be able to figure them out. For the character pages that I haven't worked on yet. I was planning to just list & document many possibilities of what Kun Lan, Harman, Toriko & the like are. Leaving the interpretation up to the gamer. Basically I'm planning to go for the same direction as this Mulholland Drive website. http://www.mulholland-drive.net/cast/roque.htm Shit, I'd like to reply to your most recent post, but damn. I spent four or five hours just writing this post, lol. (It's 4 o clock in the morning now.)

Silver Case is told with a more straight forward style. It basically serves as the backbone of the entire Kill the Past setting. SC is a lot like reading an encyclopedia about the behaviour & manipulation of the citie's populace. (I'd say world, but SC takes place within one prefecture.) How we can control entire movements & indoctrinate minds through the simple use of presentation. Interesting. Though I always admit to finding those sort of stories a tad depressing. Mostly because of how easy it is to do. At least I can take solace in the fact that it's easy to do, but hard to maintain for long periods of time. Social control always begins to show fractures. The fallout in SC occurs during the last chapter when Kamui is shot dead. Everybody chooses or has already chosen their political ideals & and all get killed or kill for it. In that sense SC reminds me of Deus Ex, because Deus Ex or at least Invisible War dealt with people who truly believed that their different sets of beliefs & doctrine are the best suited for the "New" direction of the World. Their desire for their philosophy to influence society leads them to kill for what they believe in. Which is exactly what Silver Case is about. Establishing a Utopian society through a new world order. (An order based off of the dominant ideal.) That sounds quite interesting. Your original statements about the game made it sound much more like it was a surreal mind trip rather then a commentary and societal creation... Intelligence in our modern day society basically equates to one who has impressive pattern, & memorization skills. In a way, I would say that intelligence is more of a term to describe one who has a robotic thought process, because they can recall scribes & documents containing the answers that they may need. These people are more like computers. I'm a F student, because I do god awful in -*test*-('")s. I don't see the point. I don't want to memorize an answer that was already written for me. I want to analyze & decipher of my own accord. In order to come to my own conclusions. Due to our mainstream perceptions of the word "intelligence" I would be classified as ignorant. Considering that I am both a F student & a high school drop out. I may exhibit signs of intelligence, but in general what I am or may not doesn't really matter in todays world. All that matters is if you have the papers (PhD,degree,ged, lol etc.) that prove that you are intelligent. The need for the piece of paper as a validation of ones own abilities is indeed a sad truth of the world. However there are still places where one can analyze and decipher. The University, specifically arts faculties. Things like Business and Engineering are that same sort of memorization and grinding that drives us both crazy. But that tired old, often maligned, often stated as being "worthless and out of date" arts degrees are still about critical thinking, correlation and dissection. In arts you write your own papers, argue with your professors and your peers about everything. It still has that element of critical thought which is honestly why I'm doing it. You still have to memorize a bit, I mean you have to know the 'facts' before you can argue them. But it's still good. Our world is dictated by the way we perceive words. If I were to stand in front of a crowd, and if I were to say something that may be deemed intelligent. (by some.) Most likely what would happen is that I would be classified as a lunatic, retard, psychopath, because I may be saying truths that I see that many others do not. They can not see, because they're used to the "established" meanings of the words that we use in our every day vocabulary. In that situation you could say something intelligent using the common English. Conversation can be controlled through the proper use of words but by separating yourself from the common English you are putting a control on information. You're controlling it through using language others cannot understand thus denying them information. I hate those sort of people. Philosophy shouldn't be something held by the upper classes, it should be discussed by all and barring that at least serve the purpose of helping society as a whole. Controlling knowledge through unnecessarily complex word use drives me crazy. Never a good idea when you want to enlighten the masses to speak a different language then them. If they wish to listen meet them half way and speak their language. I'm not saying you do it, it just bothers me when people do. People who actually think for themselves are few & far between. That's a trait that seems to be unneeded or frowned upon in todays society. I'd argue that. A lot of people think for themselves, the powers that be have had a hard time controlling that. A sense of helplessness is what has been instilled in people to keep them under control. Though I can't argue that it is frowned upon in society. People do it anyways however. Man I'm cynical... If you come up with a conclusion that is not acceptable to the established norm. (What a textbook may deem as the correct answer.) What usually happens is that you get ganged up on. This implies that you are wrong, because many people believe that a those in a group are more correct than one individual with a rare view point. People gang up on you in order to send a message that you are wrong. Hoping that you will change your mind, and become part of the group. The group that is considered right & or correct. We learn from childhood that intelligence is measured by our capacity to repeat pre written answers. There is no use in thinking if everybody already pats you on the back & tells you that you are right. If I may be the devil's advocate for a moment. If we don't all agree then social cohesion is lost, the societal bonds start to fall apart. Unifying ideas of society, culture, nation begin to dissolve leaving us in a state of disunion. People for the most part desire and need to be part of a greater whole, to have that social cohesion. To feel accepted and stable and know things won't change. Though ironically enough I find there has been a shift in Canada towards less memorization based education. I find it very odd. More problem solving and analyse then straight fact memorization. Still, University is still a decent place for the exchange of ideas. I spent this Friday talking about Dawkins. Me and him do not get along. As for why I consider my self of average intelligence. It's because I believe I'm one of the few who actually thinks for them self. Most people I see merely rehearse or recite what another person may have said or what they may have read from some newspaper. I believe that many of us would sound as wacko or smart or whatever as I am. If more people pursued to think & decide matters on their own terms. As of today. We as a people merely rehearse pre recorded scripts. I don't see that changing anytime soon. The big issue is that doing that takes a lot of time and effort, and people aren't always willing to do that. They do a hard days work and they want to come and relax. They don't want to work to understand the world or worse work to change it. That's hard, and even if achieved you've probably spent your entire life trying to change things and have no time to reap the rewards. The fundamental truth about people is that they are lazy, first and foremost. Everything else is secondary. And then some people may not have interest in some subjects. I don't care or perhaps don't have the time to read about Engineering, so I don't read about it but I accept its importance. On the flip side the Engineer may know about Engineering but not of Political Science. So you can't really fault a person for not knowing some things, at least in my mind. That also leads to the second enemy of general knowledge, specialization. The world is so complex that people have to work harder and harder to be able to do their job since every task uses more complex technology and requires more specialized skills. People just don't have the time because the world is so complicated. Also, on the people just regurgitating, how do you not. Unless you are there and see something happen how do you know about something unless someone tells you? It's hard to critically think when your relying on others information. Perhaps you can get a number of different soruces and correlate them but perhaps they're all wrong and thus what you say will be wrong. It's the conundrum, at some point you have to take something told to you at face value because validating it is impossible. Does France really exist? I've never been there. Was there a World War 2? I wasn't alive then. We unfortunately rely on others for information and as such we have to parrot somewhat. I mean, abstract ideas can be created on ones own and questioned and evaluated on ones own but how do you do that with events, objects, facts? You have no way to properly observe them (Assuming observation would even be right) and as such you have to rely on others and their biases and lies and hope to come to some sort of correct conclusion. Perhaps I'm wrong, but that's what the information has told me :twisted: BTW, do you have MSN?

They do a hard days work and they want to come and relax. They don't want to work to understand the world or worse work to change it.Which is why you always continue to see the working people getting screwed. Just turn on the news to one of those pundit shows and you'll always see blow-hard guests who are completely full of themselves, one thing they have in common besides their typical arrogance is the level of free time they possess. Someone who works a full work shift and has to worry about also supporting their family or trying to get their college degree doesn't have time to start a movement to ban abortions or some other ridiculous shit. Which is why there's never any pundit talking about how we need to start worrying about the people that break their backs making the wealthy even richer, because those who get their turn with the megaphone are always the privilleged and carefree(carefree, at least, when it doesn't come to trivial shit like gay marriage or flag burning). You have to wonder(not really, since it's sarcasm), how many of those post-menopause cranky mothers bitching about yet another naughty tv show or video game is a struggling single parent working two jobs just to get by? Of course, if they were, they probably would live in a neighborhood where their kids were subjected to much worse influences than anything on tv. Also, on the people just regurgitating, how do you not. Unless you are there and see something happen how do you know about something unless someone tells you? It's hard to critically think when your relying on others information. Perhaps you can get a number of different soruces and correlate them but perhaps they're all wrong and thus what you say will be wrong. It's the conundrum, at some point you have to take something told to you at face value because validating it is impossible. Does France really exist? I've never been there. Was there a World War 2? I wasn't alive then. We unfortunately rely on others for information and as such we have to parrot somewhat. I mean, abstract ideas can be created on ones own and questioned and evaluated on ones own but how do you do that with events, objects, facts? You have no way to properly observe them (Assuming observation would even be right) and as such you have to rely on others and their biases and lies and hope to come to some sort of correct conclusion. Perhaps I'm wrong, but that's what the information has told meIt's always interesting to wonder just how much of the things we take for fact are even true, and how much of it is bullshit we've been fed, and how many there are that know it's a lie while continuing to spread it. Then you start getting into conspiracy territory, and that's just where the trouble starts, because that word's been polluted by alien fearing retards who think everything suspicious has some completely unrealistic explanation for it. We didn't invade Iraq because of WMDS, it was a plot by the Illuminati, so they could appease their Reptilian overlords!!! So regardless of whether or not something doesn't seem to fit, you feel hesitant to speak out, lest you be grouped together with people who masturbate to rejected X-Files episode screenplays. I guess you just have to take what you've heard for fact, depending on the source. Though that's what comes into question, since printed form in general isn't exactly accurate. Especially with the American media in recent years. And even if they put something that's an outright lie, they can just put a 'retraction' out some time later, somewhere where no one but lawyers will read it. So 90% of what we read in the papers could have gotten a retraction at some point. In any case, if you don't believe anything, then you have nothing much to argue, and it's better to know a lot of things which may or may not be true than to know nothing at all. I suppose the real problem is when people stop thinking in an argument or debate and just spout off 'facts' that may turn out to be untrue. Look at Bill O'Reilly, when someone's making that guy look like an idiot (not hard) on his show, he just mentions some facts that support his argument, facts that he pulled out of his ass. The facts should help you to understand and shape an issue, not determine it unequivocally as right or wrong.

Wow I didn't know anybody else here went to Megaten Haven. I go there as Kroni (used to be Azazel on the phpBB board.) I don't recognize anybody ya'll are talking about, but does anyone remember Heat? Dude was always angry, but his posts were very true in my opinion (he had similair thoughts on megaten as drunkee, and he had no problem flaming people.) Nowadays I don't go there much, the userbase makes me sad.

Sorry for the delays, life has been busy. Sorry for the late reply. I haven't logged into this forum for a bout a week. I got a headache after replying to your posts for some reason. I don't know why either. My head was ringing. I couldn't play Nobunaga's Ambition properly, because of it.If I remember correctly I think I recall seeing you arguing with that one guy,Sayckeone from the Atlus forums. I must admit, I remember the name but nothing else. It has been a very long time. I usually do give people the benefit of the doubt. When I mentioned Suiko & Phoenix Wright I was actually doing it more as a kind gesture. I know from experience that most people can't handle the Ogre games. (Gameplay wise.) Back in the day saying that you're a Megaten head would've automatically labeled you as a hardcore gamer who can handle any stat heavy game. (Such as the Ogre titles.) However those days are long gone. You know like you said earlier. Megaten often refers to Persona 3 now. Or any other PS2 megaten. Lol, I’m a strange one. I first tried Ogre Battle when I was 8 years old and my response was “This game is amazing, I absolutely love it.” I was a strange kid and have always been into the hardcore games. The Persona 3 thing hurts. I’m always afraid of saying I’m a megaten fan these days because of the attachment to Persona 3. Persona 4 looks like it’s going down that same dark road too. I miss the old days when I’d say “Yeah, I beat SMT 2 without a translation and not being able to read Japanese.” To a megaten fan and it’d mean something. These new brand of Megaten fans even like the artist for P3. Gah! He’s so generic anime. Whatever happened to Kazuma? You're preaching to the choir. This forum recently lost one of it's most enigmatic & entertaining posters, because I'd often get into arguments with him about how games are supposed to be games first. He felt that games should strive to be more artistic/movie like. In order to grow as a medium. (The argument occurred in the KOF XII thread.) Personally, I find becoming a movie isn’t growing as a medium, it’s becoming a medium that already exists. Still, sad to see someone interesting go. I noticed that in the KOF thread. I’m a big KOF fan but I find it funny that people get worked up over the new graphics. They’re pretty but it’s a fighting game, gameplay is king. KOF has too many anime fanboys who like it’s animeness as opposed to fighting game palyers who appreciate the gameplay value. The flexibility of team play, the mixup game changed by small jump, the complex control game with knock backs and evac rolls, it’s EXCEEDINGLY aggressive style, that’s where KOF’s at for me. Not saying you’re like that but I make fighting game rants. I’m a huge fighting game player. KOF, SF, Virtua Fighter (Talk about a deep and technical game. There’s a series that hasn’t lost it’s gameplay roots for glitz and glamour) I'm used to being a leader in real life, but affairs are immensly different irl & online. Online I'm talking about all these theological/political affairs & what not. In real life I normally act as a leader type doing typical thug gangsta shit. It's kinda funny when you think about it. Most cats who know me irl would probably never imagine moi owning & operating a website. Especially not one about a videogame. Or at least not a game like Killer 7. Really? I find that interesting. I’m a huge geek/nerd offline who talks of gaming/politics all the time. I find it interesting since you seem to be rather knowledgable, to think of you as being gangster is very odd for me. You honestly really don’t seem like the time The problem I have is that answering inquiries and working on the website at the same time tends to wear I out. Since I have to create graphics, write the text & lay out the site content as well. I never intended for K7 SIN to turn into some kind of hub. I originally envisioned it as just some small site that I would eventually abandon once a bigger Killer 7 site came around. (I assumed that Killer 7 would be the next Silent Hill in terms of web communities.) Maintaining a site is always hard work. You could just hand it off or something. The problem with the Killer 7 community is... You know about Romance of the Three Kingdoms right? I'll use the Wu Kingdom as an example. (I'm a Weist btw. I'm just using Wu as an example.) The Killer 7 community doesn't have any Zhou Yus or Lu Xuns. We only have Lu Meng's, which is what I consider myself. Lu Meng is mostly brawn, but he's also fairly intelligent. He's more of a jack of all trades type. The Megaten community had Zhou Yu & Lu Xun (Masakado & Re-miel. Shivalva is more like a Lu Meng imo. I'd probably classify you as a Bu Zhi if I were to label you as a Wu politician/general. A man of ability greater than most, but isn't as recognized as the top dogs Zhou Yu & Lu Xun.) Suikoden community had Sima Yi, lol (Blue Moon. Blue Moon was originally a member of the Suikosource staff. He then splintered off to form his own site & took the majority of Suikosource's community along with him. Sort of like how Sima Yi's sons formed the Jin.) It’s rare that I get flattered using Ancient Chinese references. I must admit, I haven’t played them in a while and still need to read the books but I get the jist of what you’re saying.  Remember when the Megaten community splintered too? Megaten Haven was such a dividing factor. My problem is that although I do a decent job of spreading info to a very small portion of the Killer 7 fanbase. I would be doing much better had I had someone of higher authority to direct me. (Like Sun Quan to Lu Meng.) However people like that just don't exist in the English GHM community yet. Kitano Smith seems very knowledgeable, but I see him more as another Lu Meng or in his case Zhang Liao. Zhang Liao was said to hold off an entire Wu attack using only 800 men. Kinda like how Kitano Smith is able to piece together bits & pieces of Kill the Past's timeline with his limited exposure to the other Suda 51 games. Killer 7 is pretty obscure but I’m surprised there aren’t more intellectuals on the boards. It’d seem like the sort of game that would draw them like moths to a glame. Let me guess the revision occurred during Mao Zedong right? Most Chinese are working hard on trying to restore the culture that Mao tried to erase. Well actually I'm taking it the wrong way I guess Yin & Yang's original meaning was perverted in order to come off as more modern. I don’t know for certain but it would probably be the case. Any non equality based ideals the government tried to stamp out. They actually only have one form for polite now because all others were removed because they implied non-equality and subservience. On the restoring culture note, they’ve gone with Confucianism which I find funny since it’s very very unmodern with a lack of a better term. It’s sexist and authoritarian and while I find it very interesting to study I think it’s bad to govern by for the most part (It has good ideas like all ideologies.) Still, when communism fails, you gotta find something to replace it. Mengde is the bomb. I prefer Nobunaga though. Although I feel that Mengde was more talented than Nobunaga. There were many times when Nobunaga came close to being eradicated. Fortunately for him he had a shit load of luck & charisma. One can't deny how both Mengde & Nobunaga had that machiavellian charm. I look up to both of them. Cao Cao "I'd rather betray the world then let the world betray me." Oda Nobunaga "If the bird does not sing, kill it." I personally like Nobununga, too bad he got assassinated. I gotta admit, you outdo me in Asian history. My history in general is very spotty. I know bits and pieces but I’m tricky on details. I tend to focus more on Asian philosophy. Still, I really do need to brush up Personally I don’t consider being like Machivelli a positive trait. His attitudes in my mind are part of the problem with the world. Cool, calculating and self optimizing. Not my idea of an ideal role model.  Wow now this makes everything go full circle. So China must be in the same exact boat as Japan. (Both countries are often accused of being militaristic & re militarizing.) This could probably explain why Abe was able to make amends with China during his time as the PM. It seems that China & Japan have a lot in common. They both have a lot in common, and may see eye to eye someday. Right now there’s a lot of bad history and Japan being allies with the US has polarized it against China. As for re-militarizing, they both technically are. Japan is because it’s afraid that’ll be caught unable to fight if things if things to south in Asia. China is because for posturing reasons and because the Russians are getting uppity again. Sigh. Hopefully they won’t try and invade Taiwan though. That’d go very bad… As for South Korea, it depends. http://www.usinkorea.org/ They tend to preach hate against the U.S. & Japan, but at the same time they don't really mean it. South Korea usually changes their tune whenever the United States makes plans to relocate their troops to guam, japan & other neighboring nations. I think it's typical behaviour that stems from nations that have been constantly defeated through out history. Philipines also has a "victimization" complex where they'll constantly blame their own misfortunes on another. Most countries do, and people for that matter. Everything is other peoples fault. Not mine. It’s easy because you can placate people by pointing fingers and not needing to solve your own problem. It drives me crazy. Things would work a lot better if people just sat down and said, “Alright, we caused this, how do we dig ourselves out?” The US is definitely a convinent scape goat. They’re powerful, and distant, and they have done some very stupid things in recent history that make them an easy target for peoples complaints. That and they take complaints about them usually in good stride. It's quite bothersome, because most of the propaganda gets to the youth. Overly nationalistic youth are some of the most annoying people I've ever met. (Especially people in their young 20's) They don't listen to reason. No matter what country they come from or what ethnicity they may be. (The United States is a fine example. Look at the way they speak about Middle Eastern people.) Overly nationalistic youth will always be the ones who do the most damage in terms of foreign perception & relations. I hate those sort of people. I haven’t met many in Canada (Seriously how nationalistic can you be about Canada?  ) but they are going to be a huge problem until they die, which means 40-60 years of them influencing politics. Things are generational and if the young ones don’t change then problems will persist for another generation. I think most of the worlds problems could be solved by everyone being told to shut up and actually take a look at things in a reasonable way and talk things through. Chances of that happening aren’t to great though. Lately South Korea has been directing their hate train toward supposed historical inaccuracies propagated by China. I wouldn't take it seriously, because SOuth Korea also claims that the United States & Japan are trying to undermine Korea with supposed historical inaccuracies. One such example is the Dokdo issue. There’s going to be so many disputes about that and other islands in the future in that region. I’m curious how it will pan out, hopefully well. Yeah, the SDF. It's said that Japan is the country that spends the 2nd most (or was it 5th?) on military expenditures. IMO that's the problem right there. It's not normal for a country to be restricted to a defense force. I don't believe that the SDF has enough maneuverability to outlast a total conflict. The SDF is mainly there to improvise for the United States army. This is what's referred to in Ghost in the Shell 2nd gig when the tachikoma's claim that Japan is the shield & the United States is the sword. This is also an allusion to a similar line that Oda Nobunaga once said to Tokugawa Ieyasu. Oda was the blade, Tokugawa was the shield. As long as Japan and the US get along it does work very well. I must admit I don’t care about Japan in a singular country sense, I mean if there’s a war against Japan in Asia one of the smallest problems will be whether Japan wins or loses. If there’s a war that Japan’s involved in in Asia then it means that the proverbial shit has hit the fan and everything is going to hell. Taiwan, the Koreas, Russia, Japan, China, Australia, US, and other countries getting involved. It’ll be a huge and horrible mess. The hope is more that it never happens rather then Japan being prepared. Obviously Japan will want to win, but if they lose quickly it may end the problem much quicker. Sounds cynical but it is possible. The objective should be firstly to avoid a war in the region, not in expanding the army because that makes everyone else afraid and causes an arms race, and that leads to some very bad situations. That was also Japan's original purpose post WW II. I remember a year back that Japan was trying to create a treaty/alliance (I forget which. It's similar to the US/Japan agreement. Where each country backs up the other force in case of attack.) between Taiwan, Japan, & Australia. Australia didn't want anything to do with it. Understandably so. (They don't want to make China feel needlessly antagonized. Especially since, imo China is more valuable partner in the future.) As mentioned above, there’s also the issue of posturing. The more military treaties that get signed the more that countries feel the need to respond or feel outmaneuver politically and militarily. If there’s one thing I’ve learned defense treaties and defensive actions can make the world more dangerous. Any sort of military themed action creates fear which creates a response of military themed action and this escalates until you have a full blown arms race that eventually turns into a war. Not stoking the fires of fears of a military conflict is always a good move for a country that has no interest in war. You have to fill in the blanks during the Chris Mills conversation shortly before he gets killed. Mills mentioned that Matsuken controlled the following of 10 million secret japanese members. Garcian then mentions about how Matsuken could influence the direction of a decision by organizing a concentrated block vote within a city or a state. I remember that… The president was still debating to himself about whether or not to release the fireworks. Note: Secret Japanese members doesn't mean that they're Japanese. Secret Japanese members refers to people raised under Japanese ideals & pov such as those who were taught at Coburn elementary. Garcian himself is, or was a "secret Japanese member". Here's more background information about the U.S. in Killer 7. http://killer7.3dactionplanet.gamespy.com/quo.htm And that but that doesn’t resolve what the old men say about 80 million dead, and doesn’t Mill talk about there being a revenge because the US didn’t launch the fireworks. I’ll have to look into this… My older half bros & sister is Canadian or Quebocois to e exact. They come from a French background or something. I'm not sure if Vassal state is the correct term for Okinawa, but it's the only one I can think of. Oooh, Quebecois. We don’t like those kind here.  Seriously though, vassal state is accurate, but it can work out for people. Canada’s rich, Japan is rich, it can work well. There’s problems, but there would be problems any ways. I have a very pragmatic view on being a vassal, as long as your life is good go for it. There’s such thing as a benevolent ruler. Personally, the US does stupid things, but I trust them more then say China to do the right thing sometimes. I feel that it has nothing to do with being bitter. Taiwan probably made a move on Japan, because they saw an advantage. I feel that the world mainly operates through concessions & advantage. From what I gather most of the countries in Killer 7 are only making a move on Japan, because they see an advantage & they want to reap the benefits. Only the U.S. & Japan seem to be bitter towards one another. Which is why Killer 7 focuses solely on those two countries. Advantage and disadvantages are important, but not the central thing in world politics in my mind (Aha, my degree program becomes useful!). That view is very very common both in the public and amongst academic’s but I find the most important thing in politics is what do the people in power want? Often, they want to improve their country so they try to optimize their relations with other countries in order to benefit themselves. But people also believe in things and therefore do things that are to their disadvantage because they thing it’s morally the right thing. It happens surprisingly often. And there is often friendship in the political world. If people are raised being told that a country is their ally they tend to continue that trend and try to promote it once they’re in office. And on top of that Politicians can be friends. During the 90’s whenever there was a problem The Canadian Prime Minister and American President (Clinton and Chretien) Would phone each other up and talk it out. They were friends, they got along really well and made politics between the two countries smooth. Politics is shaped as much by people as it is by political concepts and optimization. People aren’t always self optimizing creatures. Now Concessions and advantages are a negotiation tactic, but you do that in real life with friends and others. I get something and you get something. It’s what all reasonable people do so obviously it s important. As for Japan being bitter, I am always curious why. They had a nasty war but came out of it a much better country then before (Larger middle class, people were more wealthy, less top heavy economics). I would assume general “US is stamping on our pride” stuff. That same old nationalistic fervor. This excerpt from HIK 7 also adds more to the whole "concessions & advantage" theme that I see going on in K7. http://killer7.3dactionplanet.gamespy.com/topsecret.htm#4 Definitely no argument on it’s importance to K7. It’s one of the things I don’t like about the story. It’s views on international politics are very simplistic. A lot of Russian woman actually run away to Japan. (I've heard that there's also quite a number of Russian women at China, but I wouldn't know.) Not surprising. Russia is not a nice place to live from what I hear. Hostile, no. Although the state of Political affairs could always change at the drop of a hat. Japan is basically nobody without the U.S.A. (Japan in Killer 7 annulled their relationship with the United States.) Since Japan would no longer have the manpower to deter a foreign invasion without the U.S.A.'s help. I think it would only be logical for other countries to make a move on Japan sooner or later. (So long as they found a viable reason that justifies their attack on Japan in order to gain enough support to invade.) Honestly, there are plenty of countries with far smaller militaries then Japan that could be easily crushed and they don’t get invaded all the time. Making a move on Japan even without US military support would be a bad move politically, would cost a lot of money, and generally be a big snafu. Plus I mean, is there really a desire to invade Japan? What do you get out of it? It’s a lot of money to take a small country with not a lot of resources. Why bother. You won’t get their manufacturing industries because they’ll be destroyed by the invasion. For the most part in the modern era it’s cheaper and easier in most ways to talk rather then fight. Even the most cynical tend to concede you can make more money through trade then through war now. Russia already owns Japanese territory. http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200501/15/eng20050115_170734.html (Russia seized several Japanese islands during the end of WW II.) The Russians were actually one of the many reasons that the Atomic bombs were used on Japan. Had the US not have bombed Japan. Russia could've assimilated more Japanese territory as their own. When a nation is on the verge of dying out. A nation typically gets assimilated into it neighbors when the nation in question has lost all power of sovereignty. The way I see it. Japan could've easily been split into two like Vietnam during the Nam or the two Koreas that we have today. Had the United States not used the Atomic bombs. Yeah, there’s a game based on that idea. Ring of Red I believe. The bomb was dropped for a number of reasons (Things are almost never single causation). To -*test*-('") it’s effectiveness, to scare the Russians, and of course the classic a ground invasion of Japan would be terrible for both sides. Assimilation of foreign countries is always touchy. One always has to ask if a country can get away with it and whether or not they want it. Land at the moment has less value then it did in the past. Now with overpopulation and future resource we may see more land conflicts but for the moment, land ain’t a hot commodity. Most wars aren't fought on the total war front these days anyway. (That's typically a last resort.) As I always say, war is expensive, hard work, and in the end both sides tend to lose more then win. No one wants that. These days we're more about information warfare & controlling the future based off of the information & doctrine that we teach our current youth. That’s nothing new, they’re just better at it. But honestly, this generation in the west at least tends to be less indoctrinated then previous ones. Ask older people in the US about the USSR. You’ll get like 100% negative responses. Now a days you’ll get more varied opinions. People talk about propaganda and public control as new things but they’ve been doing it for a long time. The USSR is our enemy, be a good Christian, respect authority. There’s a lot of propaganda but there’s a lot of anti-propaganda as well. It’s very much a tug of war. The funny thing is that's exactly what most people in the states worry about. (Well, the ones who have an average understanding of politics at least.) People often worry about a country from the East that could economically & militarily compete with the U.S. If another country were able to rival both of the U.S's combined economy & military. The scenario that I see is that the U.S. would no longer be able to create puppet states & wage false wars anymore, because they would then have to contend with a foreign nation that has access to as many resources as the United States. Not that there's really anything to worry about. Historically, China has always stuck to it's own region. China had the capabilities to conquer the Western world. (Or at least parts of it.) It's just that China never really saw the need to. Considering how big China already is. The US would still do those things, having opposition never stopped them (The US launched plenty of false wars and created many states during the Cold war) but it might lead to war with a competitor. That and foreign policy will be less predictable. Honestly, the Pax Americana has lead to a very peaceful era (Relatively) say what you will but under their rule wars are less common then they were before (Save under the Pax Britannia). But then how important is a war? Wars kill far less people a year then Famine and Disease. International politics has an annoying way of focusing on Military might instead of resource allocation which I believe I far more important. I’d argue China has never really had the option of Conquering the world. During Ancient times it had a big and advanced army but it had huge problems at home, in Asia, and it’s army was often corrupt and incompetent (It varies from point to point). From what I’ve read/heard they actually performed terribly in military engagements with other countries throughout their history. As for sticking in it’s own region, from what I’ve read it’s not doing that anymore. Sure it’s not invading countries but it’s doing things smart, economically. Cornering markets, buying resources, purchasing governments and control of organizations. It’s taking control of the infrastructure of the world so it won’t need to conquer it, it’ll own all of our money and our means of production. The US was powerful not just because of it’s military but especially cause of money. Money is central and moreso every year. He who has the money has the world. I say, and China’s on its way. Yup what you said, Post Modernism. The problem is that most people want answers, because they see Killer 7 as a straight forward tale. Rather than an expression of ideas. Most people won't accept the "They are whatever you want them to be" answer. So I try my best to come up with the most logical conclusion that Suda may have been going for. Well the game definitely says some things but a lot of it is up to interpretation no doubt. If you check up on some Japanese interviews (Specifically Gpara) with Suda 51. (Before he made Killer 7.) Suda actually does admit to making up several characters who were never meant to be figured out. I remember with Moonlight Syndrome, Suda straight up admitted that Yayoi Itsushima & Mithra from Moonlight Syndrome are meant to be mysterious, and that you're not supposed to be able to figure them out. For the character pages that I haven't worked on yet. I was planning to just list & document many possibilities of what Kun Lan, Harman, Toriko & the like are. Leaving the interpretation up to the gamer. Basically I'm planning to go for the same direction as this Mulholland Drive website. http://www.mulholland-drive.net/cast/roque.htm Sounds good. Doesn’t surprise me that Suda just made stuff not to be figured out. BTW, seen the Persona 4 stuff? Looks like we’re stuck with another Persona 3. Sigh. There has been talk of an SMT game for PS3 (Actual SMT, not Persona or DS) so there’s hope there. And there have been talks of doing an old school SMT game. Here’s hoping something comes of it. Also, I noticed your new sig with the Nocturne art. It looks like Kaneko’s visual style (Not thematically, he doesn’t do action scenes. His stuff is much more, poignant) but I’ve never seen it before. And on that note, do you know what has happened to Kaneko? He’s gone missing as of late. *Edit* Have you ever played a series called Kingdom Under Fire? The la-*test*-('") one is pretty meh, but the second and third ones are amazingly good games.(They're for the Xbox) I'm mentioning it because, well, firstly, they're amazing games (Great gameplay, good music, story, graphics. A solidly great package) And the newest ones been announced and it's been on my mind since this one also looks really good.

Drunkee's art is from the new Kaneko Works, I think someone posted some scans on Megaten Haven.

3 is out? *Checks on Ebay* Finally! It's been forever since 2. I must get this! Thanks for the heads up.

My sig is from this picture. http://www.dokuganryu.com/scans/megaten/kanekoIII/cover.jpg You can see more scans here http://www.dokuganryu.com/scans/megaten/kanekoIII/ It's mostly art from Nocturne/Nocturne Maniacs, & the SMT I & II psone remakes. BTW, seen the Persona 4 stuff? Looks like we’re stuck with another Persona 3. Sigh. There has been talk of an SMT game for PS3 (Actual SMT, not Persona or DS) so there’s hope there. And there have been talks of doing an old school SMT game. Here’s hoping something comes of it. How recent have those new SMT rumours been? I've been hearing about them for quite awhile now. Personally I think it's kind of sad how only the main SMT series seems to retain the spirit of the original games. While SMT if games were always more streamlined from the get go. At least they still had dark morbid storylines, & a heavy occult horror element to their games. (Well Persona did. Not so much Devil Summoner/Soul Hackers. Although DS games still retained a class of its own with it's emphasis on cyber punk.) What really bothers moi are the people who have been with Persona since the original, but still eat up the new Persona games as if they weren't an abomination to the original Persona trilogies collective unconsciousness plot. I got over P4. Luckily I got back into Suikoden 5 weeks before P4 was announced. (I love how Suiko 5 uses a shit load of information warfare stratagems that are still in use to this day. Examples the Lordlake Barrows agent provocateur strategy, Lucretia reliance on the media/news papers in order to manipulate & control the flow of information into her favour, etc.) Persona has moved on to "greener pastures" I guess. (No traces of Lovecraftian horror at all. Just like the 3rd game.) Can't say that I approve, but hey whatever. The one thing about P4 that I do like is the theme song. (It sounds very "Personaish" The one thing that would convince moi to get P4 is if they brought back the use of guns/firearms as a secondary weapon. Which was an option that has been missing from Megaten games since Persona 2. (Of course I highly doubt that P4 would bring back secondary weapons. So essentially that means that I'll most likely skip out on P4, hah hah.) Also, I noticed your new sig with the Nocturne art. It looks like Kaneko’s visual style (Not thematically, he doesn’t do action scenes. His stuff is much more, poignant) but I’ve never seen it before. And on that note, do you know what has happened to Kaneko? He’s gone missing as of late. Judging by the "critiques" that some posters have made at this thread. http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=258195&page=8 I'm guessing that Kaneko was excluded from P4, because of his visual style. He's sort of like the next Yoshitaka Amano. In the sense that the newer fans just can't stand nor respect Kaneko's art work. I find it hypocritical though since Soejima's art style is basically based off of Kaneko, but without the attention to detail. Kaneko's artwork has always had that cyber punkish look to it. Which is sorely missing from Soejima's original pieces such as P3 & P4. (I only dig Soejima whenever he bases his art off of Kaneko's style. Such as Soul Hackers & P2 IS/EP) The thing I liked about Kaneko was how he presented haute couture fashion into video game format so well. Unfortunately Kaneko's attention to detail seems to go over most Megaten fans heads. http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10260716&postcount=387 http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10260649&postcount=386 That type of shit pisses moi off, because IMO Soejima's style is way too generic, and I don't understand the so called "creativeness & originality" that most new Megaten fans see in Soejima. I'd much rather see more of Kaneko's houte couture inspired designs. http://www.frillr.com/?q=taxonomy/term/353/0/feed This woman in particular looks like she would blend in well with the old school style of Persona character designs. It just infuriates moi how everybody seems to prefer the more generic "anime" approach of P3 & P4. Over the superbly fashion influenced designs of the original Persona titles. Sure Kaneko may be "unoriginal & uncreative" or all his characters may "look exactly the same" as most newer Megatenist believe, but it doesn't matter to moi. What Kaneko had was class & sophisticated looking designs. I liked how Kaneko's designs tended to have subtle differences between one another. (Such as Lisa Silverman has bigger eyes than most of the asian characters. Eriko looks more cultured than most of the Persona cast. Jun looked more feminine than even the females, etc.) IMO that made Kaneko's deisgns more true to life, because most people of the same ethnicity tend to only have subtle differences in appearance. Kaneko is the videogame artist that I admire most. (Him & Tomomi Kobayashi of the Romancing Saga games) It just irks moi how people don't seem to realize how much planning actually goes on into his designs. Everybody seems to get the impression that Kaneko just copies & pastes his character designs over & over. http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10259958&postcount=379 Without realizing that Kaneko usually bases his designs off of real world mythology. As well as most of Kaneko's human characters seem to be based off of celebrities from Japan. I'll say this much.... Kaneko would have never created an ILL conceived design such as that retarded ass looking Mickey Mouse persona with the bell bottoms, lol. *Edit* Have you ever played a series called Kingdom Under Fire? The la-*test*-('") one is pretty meh, but the second and third ones are amazingly good games.(They're for the Xbox) I'm mentioning it because, well, firstly, they're amazing games (Great gameplay, good music, story, graphics. A solidly great package) And the newest ones been announced and it's been on my mind since this one also looks really good. KUF is the only Xbox game that I own. (Besides eus Ex Invisible War & Dreamfall) Heh heh, so I take it that you like Korean Heavy metal. I love KUF. I actually made a post awhile back about the announcement of KUF II. forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=911&start=7" target="_blank">http://killer7.6.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=911&start=7 I've only played Heroes, but that's mostly because I can't find Crusaders anywhere. That badass Regnier returns in KUF II as a normal human. I don't count the la-*test*-('") KUF as a true KUF game, because it's nothing more than a weak ass Diablo clone. True KUF games are more like streamlined Real time strategy/ Dynasty Warriors hack n slash like hybrids. (The original KUF on the pc was a full fledged RTS, but I don't count that game either, because it sucked ass.) Unlike Dynasty Warriors, the enemies in KUF actually want to kill you. KUF has some of the most hectic depictions of war that I've ever seen in a videogame. It's fun as hell. Personally the story for KUF wasn't that great, but I think it mostly had to do with the faulty translation if nothing else. The dialogue was ass horrible, but the overall plot about the ancient heart, the religious crusades, & the fall of the vampires did sound intriguing. Had it been written with more professionalism. My favorite aspect about KUF is the customization. (Well that & the music.) The dwarves kick ass because you can customize them to have big ass guns. I always give my dark elf generals cross bows or magic. I seriously need to find a copy of The Crusaders, because Heroes felt like an add on. (Still a kick ass game though.) I'll say this much KUF fans are hard to find, because nobody wants to give the (Xbox) KUF games a chance. Even if they do give KUF a chance they'll most likely get alienated because you need to be both into strategy & hack n slash games in order to fully immerse yourself with the KUF games. (Lucky for I, beat em ups & strategy games are my two favorite genres.) KUF Heroes was the most unique experience that I've ever had with a game during the last gaming generation. I'll post a reply to your other posts later. I basically see this thread as an exchange of pen pal letters in the form of a forum thread. It takes me just as long to write a letter as it does to write a single post in this thread.

Hey, how's it going? Sorry about the long break but things have been really busy. University exams, events, and various other things have kept me busy. I'll have a response done up soon. Just telling you I'm still alive and here and will be back in the swing of things soon. Regards.

The SNES SMT is kicking my ass. no matter my level and how strong my demons are, I always find groups between 7-8 of demons that always paralyze, freeze, sleep and such. However the fact you can choose your own path is pretty cool. I think im pretty far (after Japan got nuked, killed Ozawa, stopped a scientist, red/black baron dungeon, but this doesnt seem to get any easier)

Man, I’m really late with this. I apologize, but life has been crazy. At least I beat Megami Tensei 2 during the time. And here’s a note, PLAY IT! The game is so amazing words can’t describe, especially for a NES game. I whole heartedly recommend it. How recent have those new SMT rumours been? I've been hearing about them for quite awhile now. Personally I think it's kind of sad how only the main SMT series seems to retain the spirit of the original games. While SMT if games were always more streamlined from the get go. At least they still had dark morbid storylines, & a heavy occult horror element to their games. (Well Persona did. Not so much Devil Summoner/Soul Hackers. Although DS games still retained a class of its own with it's emphasis on cyber punk.) What really bothers moi are the people who have been with Persona since the original, but still eat up the new Persona games as if they weren't an abomination to the original Persona trilogies collective unconsciousness plot. Devil Summoner wasn’t very cyberpunk, though no one can argue that Soul Hackers is. As for buying Persona games, I was guilty of buying 3. I’m still on the fence for FES+4, not because I think I’ll like them but something feels wrong about not buying a Megaten game. Damnnit, they hooked me. Plus I feel bad bitching about a game I haven’t played much. As for SMT IF, I dunno, it was occult in a Persona 1 sort of way. If + The Devil Summoner series (I lump them together) are much less dark/serious/intelligent as the rest of the series, which is shame. I got over P4. Luckily I got back into Suikoden 5 weeks before P4 was announced. (I love how Suiko 5 uses a shit load of information warfare stratagems that are still in use to this day. Examples the Lordlake Barrows agent provocateur strategy, Lucretia reliance on the media/news papers in order to manipulate & control the flow of information into her favour, etc.) I own that game, I really need to play it. On my long list. The Command and Conquer expansion comes out this week so I’m sunk. Gotta play that before anything else. Persona has moved on to "greener pastures" I guess. (No traces of Lovecraftian horror at all. Just like the 3rd game.) To be fair, there doesn’t need to be. The rest of the series got by fine without it. Can't say that I approve, but hey whatever. The one thing about P4 that I do like is the theme song. (It sounds very "Personaish" Really? I dislike the theme music. I like my Techno/Industrial, Thrash, Metal in general, Hard Rock, and Classical/opera music in Megaten games. This hip of thing it’s getting on with angers me. I can’t stand hip hop. The one thing that would convince moi to get P4 is if they brought back the use of guns/firearms as a secondary weapon. Which was an option that has been missing from Megaten games since Persona 2. (Of course I highly doubt that P4 would bring back secondary weapons. So essentially that means that I'll most likely skip out on P4, hah hah.) Dual Combat would be nice. No argument. I’ve wanted it back forever. Judging by the "critiques" that some posters have made at this thread. http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=258195&page=8 I'm guessing that Kaneko was excluded from P4, because of his visual style. He's sort of like the next Yoshitaka Amano. In the sense that the newer fans just can't stand nor respect Kaneko's art work. Yeah, I’ve seen people like that. Disliking Kaneko, bah! Though I gotta be honest, I really don’t like Amano. His style just does not work for me. I find it hypocritical though since Soejima's art style is basically based off of Kaneko, but without the attention to detail. Kaneko's artwork has always had that cyber punkish look to it. Which is sorely missing from Soejima's original pieces such as P3 & P4. (I only dig Soejima whenever he bases his art off of Kaneko's style. Such as Soul Hackers & P2 IS/EP) The thing I liked about Kaneko was how he presented haute couture fashion into video game format so well. Unfortunately Kaneko's attention to detail seems to go over most Megaten fans heads. http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10260716&postcount=387 http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10260649&postcount=386 That type of shit pisses moi off, because IMO Soejima's style is way too generic, and I don't understand the so called "creativeness & originality" that most new Megaten fans see in Soejima. I'd much rather see more of Kaneko's houte couture inspired designs. http://www.frillr.com/?q=taxonomy/term/353/0/feed This woman in particular looks like she would blend in well with the old school style of Persona character designs. I gotta admit, you know a lot more about fashion then I do. I like his art style first, because I like how it looks in a colour/geometrical way. But I also like the clothing since it has that modern/near future look with elements of punk. It’s a style I really like. I can’t cite fashion shows and the like, lol. I’m very out of my element in this conversation I must admit. It just infuriates moi how everybody seems to prefer the more generic "anime" approach of P3 & P4. Over the superbly fashion influenced designs of the original Persona titles. Sure Kaneko may be "unoriginal & uncreative" or all his characters may "look exactly the same" as most newer Megatenist believe, but it doesn't matter to moi. What Kaneko had was class & sophisticated looking designs. I liked how Kaneko's designs tended to have subtle differences between one another. (Such as Lisa Silverman has bigger eyes than most of the asian characters. Eriko looks more cultured than most of the Persona cast. Jun looked more feminine than even the females, etc.) No argument on the generic. It angers me. Kaneko was strange and distinct. IMO that made Kaneko's deisgns more true to life, because most people of the same ethnicity tend to only have subtle differences in appearance. Kaneko is the videogame artist that I admire most. (Him & Tomomi Kobayashi of the Romancing Saga games) I hate Amano, but I like Kobayashi for some reason (They’re styles are similar so it’s odd.) Also, Romancing SaGa games are awesome… I'll say this much.... Kaneko would have never created an ILL conceived design such as that retarded ass looking Mickey Mouse persona with the bell bottoms, lol. Yeah, I said WTF when I saw that too. I gotta ask, you keep up with the fashion industry? I find it interesting but haven’t really looked into it. I suppose partially because fashion show fashion is designed for thin people and I am a broad shoulder ogre. KUF is the only Xbox game that I own. (Besides eus Ex Invisible War & Dreamfall) Heh heh, so I take it that you like Korean Heavy metal. I love KUF. I actually made a post awhile back about the announcement of KUF II. forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=911&start=7" target="_blank">http://killer7.6.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=911&start=7 I've only played Heroes, but that's mostly because I can't find Crusaders anywhere. That badass Regnier returns in KUF II as a normal human. Reigner is awesome, and good too sea him leading an army of Encablossa, makes me happy to see a hero fall. As for Korean metal, I just like good metal in general. And if KUF has one thing, it’s good metal. Also, Arcana Hearts is crap. Take it from a hardcore fighting game player. It’s basically a stripped down Guilty Gear XX (Like Melty Blood). Do yourself a favor and skip this pedo game and go get GGXX Accent Core, since it’s like better in every way. (Excellent gameplay, better character design, much better music. I love Daisuke’s music. (His new music for Blaz Blue looks great.)) BTW, am I the only one who finds it creepy that we seem to play the same games? It’s weird to have someone who actually knows what I’m talking about. I don't count the la-*test*-('") KUF as a true KUF game, because it's nothing more than a weak ass Diablo clone. I own it.  I just felt I had to support KUF. The companies finally getting popular but I want more KUF and thus needed to support it. That and I wanted to see where the story went. I’m not a man for fantasy stories, but something about KUF catches me. It’s very dark and gothic unlike most. True KUF games are more like streamlined Real time strategy/ Dynasty Warriors hack n slash like hybrids. (The original KUF on the pc was a full fledged RTS, but I don't count that game either, because it sucked ass.) Unlike Dynasty Warriors, the enemies in KUF actually want to kill you. KUF has some of the most hectic depictions of war that I've ever seen in a videogame. It's fun as hell. I still wanna play the original KUF, just because. Don’t worry about having to inform me, I already know plenty about KUF, I love it. And no argument on the hectic