A hello and a question....

I hate these kinds of posts, because I always end up having to write a friggin' novel, but here goes. (Nice choice in games btw. Throw in Phoenix Wright & Suikoden while your at it. Phoenix Wright isn't anywhere near dark as the games you mentioned, but the writing is good.) Kun Lun/HArman's chess game is definitely a metaphor for opposing forces In Japan and the US, especially in Emir's head that has been messed with be both. I think they simply represent opposing forces of ideals & creeds or yin & yang. The fact that the game uses US & Japan as the opposition is irrelevant. They're merely ciphers. Killer 7 could've used any country, but they went with the aforementioned two. The irony about the conflict is it was actually China who fired the pulsars in the first place. (Shanghai) Instead what Japan does is retaliate against the US, because the US failed to comply with the peace treaty. Which seemed like a likely scenario given the time that K7 was originally released. As of today, the US has installed more anti nuke defenses on Japan's soil. So the real world is at least doing some things to prevent a similar political fallout that was depicted in Killer 7. HIK states that there is a real Kun Lun, but that he's just a senile old man. I suppose we're just left with Kun Lun/Harman being some sort of manifestation of different perspectives but something doesn't sit well with me about that. I don't know what sits wrong with me, maybe it's because I try to expel the mystical from the game's plot and try to focus more on the material and the rest as 'misdirection.' Play "Flower, Sun & Rain" once the DS port gets translated into English. That game should expel almost all or any doubt of the subliminal mystical & supernatural influences. I say subliminal, because it took moi until my third play through to finally realize that one of the main characters in FSR isn't really who she says she is. She's actually an avatar of some idea,god or thought form. This makes sense when you take into account that all of Suda's non licensed games take place in the same setting that was originated in Moonlight Syndrome. forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=940" target="_blank">http://killer7.6.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=940 MS is a semi paranormal game that was spawned off of a supernatural horror series called Twilight Syndrome. The thing with K7 is that it uses a more subliminal, & dare I say realistic depiction of what the paranormal may look like in the real world. Most K7 theories I've seen. Usually get way too carried away with the spiritual & act as if Kun Lan & Harman are Greek style gods who actually interact with the people. It's not that simple. The paranormal actually affects our everyday life. We just don't notice it, because we've been constantly told that it doesn't exist. In order to enforce that idea, we usually come up with crazy ass concepts about god & the devil. Which imo undermines spirtuality as a whole, because it makes the concept of the paranormal appear to be nothing more than fairy tales. It's this concept of the paranormal (The mainstream Christian belief.) that I feel has no place in Killer 7's plot. In order to comprehend the plot devices of Kun & Harman with more clarity you need to first accustom yourself with the pagan like religions/doctrine of the far East. Where the paranormal is more commonly accepted as reality. Although it should be pointed out that the East has a very different approach to the supernatural. The word god holds a less omnipotent meaning in the east. In the East, the word god simply refers to "a" divine spirit. (not "the", a. "A" implies that the higher beings exist as finite life forms like we do. Rather than omnipotent god like beings.) What you have to remember is that Kun Lan is of Tibetan origin. There have been two convincing theories that I've seen that spawn from Kun's tibetan ethnicity. The first one comes from Kitano. Who has made a very convincing post about Kun Lan being a "reincarnation" of "Mara Papima" forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=572&start=20" target="_blank">http://killer7.6.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=572&start=20 You mean Mara Papima? That's not a chick (it may be if you want him to, though), but Kun Lan himself. Kun Lan is said to be a reincarnation of him. Mara Papima is actually the "king" of the Mara. It's the Buddhist equivalent of the christian devil, if you will, who's only purpose is to prevent Buddha (and you. Which is to say, the Buddha may be yourself) from developping a third eye (enlightment), by clouding his mind with trivialities like carnal activities, which is why Mara often assumes the form of a woman, or several women in order for Buddha to never achieve the highest plane. (Which is why, in my version of the story, Kun Lan doesn't have the same appearance as in the game, but more like an androgynous, or even female look, in order to appear seductive) The other is the Tulpa thought form idea that I came up with, and IMO. When you combine the knowledge of how a Tulpa thought form is created & the knowledge of what Mara Papima actually is. There's little to no doubt in my mind that the Kun Lan we see in the game is nothing more than a manifestation of an idea. Kun Lan's existence relates to Descartes "Cogito Ergo Sum" I think what you seem to be misinterpreting is that a Tulpa thought form actually does have the ability to interact & manipulate their surroundings. Which is exactly what Kun Lan does. A thought form is no different from you or I. The only differences are that they exist on a higher density level. http://www.grantchronicles.com/astro15.htm We live as length, breadth, height, & time. They exist above that level. Tulpas exist as vibration patterns. They look paranormal to us, because we as a whole can't comprehend anything higher than the 4rth density. The other difference is that Tulpas were created from our collective will. Tulpas become their own lifeforms with mind & body once a thought form materializes into the 3-d world. (Our current density & level of existence.) A Tulpa is basically a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher_self Sequentially-incarnating Higher Selves: Sequential incarnation is a new incarnation that will begin when the previous one has ended and its Higher Self has determined a need for further 3rd density experience. They do so by extending an energy stream from the 5th density into physical vehicles on the 3rd density. This process is commonly known as incarnation. Currently, all alien species (in contrast to Earth inhabitants, or "Earthers") within this galaxy, including those on Earth, are incarnation streams from sequentially incarnating Higher Selves. If you notice, Kun Lan only speaks with dead people. The only living person who he does interact with directly is Matsuken. Kun Lan only interacted with Matsuken when Kurahashi & Akiba were still around. (The two old goons that Matsuken just killed.) I believe that Matsuken's role was probably supposed to be Sundance Shot from Silver Case/FSR in the original K7 builds. Admittedly Sundance wouldn't be portrayed as a rookie upstart like Matsuken was. Considering that Sundance is just as vague as Kun & Harman are, but at least we know that Sundance is an actual human being of ambiguous origin. (I say ambiguous, because I doubt that he's Japanese. I think he's some kind of remnant from the Victorian era.) It's my opinion that K7 probably didn't have a East vs West plot to begin with, and it's just some random ass shit that Suda came up with when Capcom changed his plot around. (K7 was originally supposed to connect with Moonlight Syndrome, Silver Case, & FSR. Mithra, the main antagonist from MS actually makes a cameo appearance during the Alter Ego level as two twins.)

MITHRA: God of contract 1. The Death of Samantha and the old man. Who did it and why? It seems to me that their death would most likely be against the wishes of the powers that be (The people controlling everything). Was it the Japaense or some other party and why? (Well, most likely to make the US lose their pet assassin) I think you answered your own question. http://killer7.3dactionplanet.gamespy.com/killthepast.htm Kill the Past refers to one who dwells on or erases a traumatic event from their past. Many of these individuals who can manage to maintain their self-consciousness. Do so only through repetition of a set of events that reflect or mirror their past. In many cases that past (The past that you wish to kill, or erase from your memory.) must be faced/confronted head on in order for that past incident to be settled. You must kill the past (traumatic events that you need to quell in order to move on with your life.) in order to live for the future. Basically Emir falls under the theme of a character who constantly undergoes an ordeal of repetition in order to shield himself away from his past. That repetition was broken once somebody killed Samantha. Who killed her? Who cares? It doesn't matter. All that matters is that somebody broke the repetition in Emir's life. Emir loses his sense of self & reality once he was no longer able to continue his facade as the Killer 7. He eventually breaks away from his mental "conditioning" & sees the truth for what it really is. He is, Killer 7. A realization that Emir may have never came across had somebody not tamper with his daily routine that kept the past away from him. BTW Emir is actually a hitman for Japan. The U.S. just took him underneath their wing, because that 13 yr. old was able to breech through the United States security defenses. All in all it's minute details at best. IMO a lot of the little details that most folks dwell on, shouldn't be taken too seriously. The reason why I say that is because a lot of the little details just make the story more ridiculous then it should be. If we were to take the entire game down to every single detail as canon. As you said the main themes that should be concentrated on if we were to view Killer 7 as a stand alone game are: Propaganda Government control Asian politics The spirituality of the higher consciousness is touched upon on in Killer 7, but the game never actually does anything with that plot device. Which is why I ignore it. (When used within the context of K7) Although I would like to make it clear that the paranormal does exist in the world of Suda's games. Especially Moonlight Syndrome & Flower Sun & Rain. (Those two games had higher life forms who actually do interact with the cast, but they usually came off as normal people with some unique abilities.) The version of spirituality that Suda utilizes, mimics the more "pure" undistorted pagan beliefs of the paranormal. Rather than the Christian version of the paranormal (God/Angels, Devil/Demons) that most of us have been accustomed to believe in. Since you do play the Megaten games. I'll just use them as an example of what Suda is trying to pull with the paranormal themes. In Megaten most of those demonic/angelic beings exist as if they were just another breed or species of humanity. Which is what they are for the most part, since most of the megaten demons can't exist in the human world without us (the humans) being there in worshiping them in the first place. (They form from our collective belief & faith in their existence.)

I hate these kinds of posts, because I always end up having to write a friggin' novel, but here goes. Glad you did though. I've read a number of posts on Killer 7 and you're quite intelligent and well informed. I apologize for the inconvenience however. :D (Nice choice in games btw. Throw in Phoenix Wright & Suikoden while your at it. Phoenix Wright isn't anywhere near dark as the games you mentioned, but the writing is good.) I like Phoenix Wright but I must admit not a big fan. The writings good but it doesn't play to me appreciation for the dark and sophisticated. As for Suikoden, been a fan for a while (Still have to get around to playing 4, 5 and tactics, they're on my list, I even own 5, but still have too many games to work through. I believe Rule of Rose is next on my list (Can you sense the dark and surreal themes prevalent in my game choices?). If I may make a suggestion to you, if you haven't tried any of them try Ogre Battle. They're a lot like Suikoden thematically with the epic conflict and such but tend to be more dark and complex (Both gameplay and story wise). It's definitely one of my favorite series. I think they simply represent opposing forces of ideals & creeds or yin & yang. I must admit I dislike the use of Yin Yang in conversations. I'm not saying you misunderstand it but most people tend to misue it. (I'm a chinese Philosophy minor) They get thrown around a lot as being equal but Yin tends to be exceedingly subordinate to Yang I feel doesn't quite work with the game even though Kun tends to lose his chess games he isn't passive by any means. But that's just my interpretation. The fact that the game uses US & Japan as the opposition is irrelevant. They're merely ciphers. Killer 7 could've used any country, but they went with the aforementioned two. Well any country at any time could be used as long as they stand in opposition. I do believe the mentioning of US/Japan is relevent to the presented story obviously since their the two players and since much of this is in Emir's head they play very much to his duality. Which seemed like a likely scenario given the time that K7 was originally released. As of today, the US has installed more anti nuke defenses on Japan's soil. So the real world is at least doing some things to prevent a similar political fallout that was depicted in Killer 7. We could have some argument here. (Chinese philosophy minor, political science major. Not trying to say I know more by mentioning it, just think it's kinda amusing...) such a scenario I see has being unlikely in the current political climate and for the forseeable future. The use of nukes is not only a pandora's box and one person uses them, everyone may. People tend to avoid it. Couple that with as I call it "The don't rock the boat" syndrome (China's powerful because of the current world order, the US is powerful due to the current world order. Everyones policy at the moment is to not rock the boat because it could ruin the setup they have. The powers that be are happy with the current order since it made them powerful and best not to mess with it. That and wars are getting expensive and messy. Best to avoid them in mosts powerful countries minds. But that's just my view) In my mind it's all just posturing and economic competition for the forseeable. Now, will there be a point in the unforseeable future where this could be a problem? Definitely, and Suda is right to think that things need to change to secure Japan's future. (Though I think Taiwan should be the most afraid. One China policy, hurah!) Play "Flower, Sun & Rain" once the DS port gets translated into English. That game should expel almost all or any doubt of the subliminal mystical & supernatural influences. I say subliminal, because it took moi until my third play through to finally realize that one of the main characters in FSR isn't really who she says she is. She's actually an avatar of some idea,god or thought form. This makes sense when you take into account that all of Suda's non licensed games take place in the same setting that was originated in Moonlight Syndrome. forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=940" target="_blank">http://killer7.6.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=940 MS is a semi paranormal game that was spawned off of a supernatural horror series called Twilight Syndrome. I must admit I am at a disadvantage not having played his other games. Not even No More Heroes. Just don't want to buy a Wii... The thing with K7 is that it uses a more subliminal, & dare I say realistic depiction of what the paranormal may look like in the real world. Most K7 theories I've seen. Usually get way too carried away with the spiritual & act as if Kun Lan & Harman are Greek style gods who actually interact with the people. It's not that simple. The paranormal actually affects our everyday life. We just don't notice it, because we've been constantly told that it doesn't exist. In order to enforce that idea, we usually come up with crazy ass concepts about god & the devil. Which imo undermines spirtuality as a whole, because it makes the concept of the paranormal appear to be nothing more than fairy tales. It's this concept of the paranormal (The mainstream Christian belief.) that I feel has no place in Killer 7's plot. In order to comprehend the plot devices of Kun & Harman with more clarity you need to first accustom yourself with the pagan like religions/doctrine of the far East. Where the paranormal is more commonly accepted as reality. Although it should be pointed out that the East has a very different approach to the supernatural. The word god holds a less omnipotent meaning in the east. In the East, the word god simply refers to "a" divine spirit. (not "the", a. "A" implies that the higher beings exist as finite life forms like we do. Rather than omnipotent god like beings.) No argument on that. Though Hinduism and some forms of Buddhism hold view that their are VERY (Not Christian, but not that far away) gods who affect things. Though I remember one Hindu philosophy being that becoming a god is a bad thing since you'll become corrupt with power and end up reincarnating very far down the proverbial ladder. It amused me... What you have to remember is that Kun Lan is of Tibetan origin. There have been two convincing theories that I've seen that spawn from Kun's tibetan ethnicity. The first one comes from Kitano. Who has made a very convincing post about Kun Lan being a "reincarnation" of "Mara Papima" Quote: forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=572&start=20" target="_blank">http://killer7.6.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=572&start=20 You mean Mara Papima? That's not a chick (it may be if you want him to, though), but Kun Lan himself. Kun Lan is said to be a reincarnation of him. Mara Papima is actually the "king" of the Mara. It's the Buddhist equivalent of the christian devil, if you will, who's only purpose is to prevent Buddha (and you. Which is to say, the Buddha may be yourself) from developping a third eye (enlightment), by clouding his mind with trivialities like carnal activities, which is why Mara often assumes the form of a woman, or several women in order for Buddha to never achieve the highest plane. (Which is why, in my version of the story, Kun Lan doesn't have the same appearance as in the game, but more like an androgynous, or even female look, in order to appear seductive) The other is the Tulpa thought form idea that I came up with, and IMO. When you combine the knowledge of how a Tulpa thought form is created & the knowledge of what Mara Papima actually is. There's little to no doubt in my mind that the Kun Lan we see in the game is nothing more than a manifestation of an idea. Kun Lan's existence relates to Descartes "Cogito Ergo Sum" I think what you seem to be misinterpreting is that a Tulpa thought form actually does have the ability to interact & manipulate their surroundings. Which is exactly what Kun Lan does. A thought form is no different from you or I. The only differences are that they exist on a higher density level. http://www.grantchronicles.com/astro15.htm We live as length, breadth, height, & time. They exist above that level. Tulpas exist as vibration patterns. They look paranormal to us, because we as a whole can't comprehend anything higher than the 4rth density. The other difference is that Tulpas were created from our collective will. Tulpas become their own lifeforms with mind & body once a thought form materializes into the 3-d world. (Our current density & level of existence.) A Tulpa is basically a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher_self Quote: Sequentially-incarnating Higher Selves: Sequential incarnation is a new incarnation that will begin when the previous one has ended and its Higher Self has determined a need for further 3rd density experience. They do so by extending an energy stream from the 5th density into physical vehicles on the 3rd density. This process is commonly known as incarnation. Currently, all alien species (in contrast to Earth inhabitants, or "Earthers") within this galaxy, including those on Earth, are incarnation streams from sequentially incarnating Higher Selves. If you notice, Kun Lan only speaks with dead people. The only living person who he does interact with directly is Matsuken. Kun Lan only interacted with Matsuken when Kurahashi & Akiba were still around. (The two old goons that Matsuken just killed.) I believe that Matsuken's role was probably supposed to be Sundance Shot from Silver Case/FSR in the original K7 builds. Admittedly Sundance wouldn't be portrayed as a rookie upstart like Matsuken was. Considering that Sundance is just as vague as Kun & Harman are, but at least we know that Sundance is an actual human being of ambiguous origin. (I say ambiguous, because I doubt that he's Japanese. I think he's some kind of remnant from the Victorian era.) It's my opinion that K7 probably didn't have a East vs West plot to begin with, and it's just some random ass shit that Suda came up with when Capcom changed his plot around. (K7 was originally supposed to connect with Moonlight Syndrome, Silver Case, & FSR. Mithra, the main antagonist from MS actually makes a cameo appearance during the Alter Ego level as two twins.) While your theory is well thought out I must admit I'd go with the Mara one over it, mainly because it fits better with what's said in HIK7. If it wasn't for that I'd probably go with your theory. (Which I essentially did in my mental first draft, though not with the term ofTulpa since I must admit I have a poor grasp of Tibetan spirituality. I focus mostly on Judo Christian and Buddhism (With some dabblings in Hinduism and Japanese Shintao which is more folk spirirutalism but that's another discussion.) I basically thought of them as mere ideas given shape, representation of opposing ideologies. A realization that Emir may have never came across had somebody not tamper with his daily routine that kept the past away from him. BTW Emir is actually a hitman for Japan. The U.S. just took him underneath their wing, because that 13 yr. old was able to breech through the United States security defenses. All in all it's minute details at best. IMO a lot of the little details that most folks dwell on, shouldn't be taken too seriously. The reason why I say that is because a lot of the little details just make the story more ridiculous then it should be. If we were to take the entire game down to every single detail as canon. Indeed. However I must admit I am a rather, thorough man and must be able to fully comprehend something to be satisfied. I easily understood themes and messages (I keep on hearing on this board that people focus on the god/devil thing instead of the politics, which baffles me. I mean, the game is confusing but the importance of politics to the story is one of the things it says directly to you. I mean half the game or more is dedicated to US/Japanese relations and corrupt politics. How can one ignore that?) however I picking out some aspects the "plot story" as opposed to the "theme story" was something I found tricky. I got most of it, I mean stuff like Emir being a Japanese agent taken under the wing of the US, or the Japanese/US issues were easy but things like the Harman/Kun Lan were tricky for me to piece together precisely since I felt I was working with imperfect data (For example I didn't read HIK7 till after writing the post) or I couldn't fit i in with my attempt to be less spiritual, or just plain I had a few ideas in my head that seemed feasible I just needed some reassurance or other theories on it. Something which I greatly appreicate you taking part in. As you said the main themes that should be concentrated on if we were to view Killer 7 as a stand alone game are: Propaganda Government control Asian politics The spirituality of the higher consciousness is touched upon on in Killer 7, but the game never actually does anything with that plot device. Which is why I ignore it. (When used within the context of K7) Although I would like to make it clear that the paranormal does exist in the world of Suda's games. Especially Moonlight Syndrome & Flower Sun & Rain. (Those two games had higher life forms who actually do interact with the cast, but they usually came off as normal people with some unique abilities.) The version of spirituality that Suda utilizes, mimics the more "pure" undistorted pagan beliefs of the paranormal. Rather than the Christian version of the paranormal (God/Angels, Devil/Demons) that most of us have been accustomed to believe in. Since you do play the Megaten games. I'll just use them as an example of what Suda is trying to pull with the paranormal themes. In Megaten most of those demonic/angelic beings exist as if they were just another breed or species of humanity. Which is what they are for the most part, since most of the megaten demons can't exist in the human world without us (the humans) being there in worshiping them in the first place. (They form from our collective belief & faith in their existence.) Again, sadly my knowledge of Suda games is limited, I do thank you for the info however. To be fair, it spends on the game. Demons obviously don't belong here since they require Magnetite to exist in our world. Actually, for the most part I'd agree (Though the Nocturne cosmology is different. There's much more of a god as an always present cyclic creator and destroyer element as opposed to say SMT 2's God who exists possibly because of our faith but our faith will definitely bring him back idea. Though he is implied to be our creator. Questions questions...) Though on the Megaten note I'm one of those elistist bastards (I get the feeling I came off as one in my responses, and apologize if I did :) ) I feel almost dirty these days saying I'm a huge Megaten fan. I mean, honestly, they've gone down the crapper. All of them after Nocturne Maniacs(Which impressed me by being fantastic on every level.... except Dante) were both thematically and gameplay wise rather subpar for Megaten. They've become more mainstream. Less dark, less philosophical, more melodramatic, more anime with lack of a better word (I mean did you ever hear the main character of Nocturne complaining about his love life, going off to fight the bid baddie, or seeking revenge or other melodramatic cliches. No, he was veichle to tell a story and more importantly to see different ideologies and perspectives of the world. ) I mean, with the popularity of Persona 3 everyone's like "Oh, you're a persona 3 fan" and I'd have to say "I like how it worked with Nihilism at some points but it was underdeveloped. For the most part it was a blah game story/gameplay wise. Go play Nocturne, it's a winner. (Or possibly the translations of SMT1/2, damn excellent games. The original Persona is also excellent but talk about bad localization.)" Sorry, just my little rant. I've been having a hard time trying to sell Megaten to people when a good percentage of the localized ones haven't been good examples of Megaten. Either way, I should bring this to a close. I found Killer 7 to be something one has to deal with in much the same way a good philosophical movie. Once you are done watching it you have to turn to the people who watched with you and bounce ideas back and forth about it so you can come to some sort of satisfying conclusion. I have lacked this in relation to this game and thus I thank you for that opportunity to do so and appreciate the time you spent responding to me. Have a good day.

LOL, looks like I made another 2 or 3 hour long post, but hey I wanted to this time. You're an interesting guy. I could learn a lot from you. To be fair, it spends on the game. Demons obviously don't belong here since they require Magnetite to exist in our world. Actually, for the most part I'd agree (Though the Nocturne cosmology is different. There's much more of a god as an always present cyclic creator and destroyer element as opposed to say SMT 2's God who exists possibly because of our faith but our faith will definitely bring him back idea. Though he is implied to be our creator. Questions questions...) Though on the Megaten note I'm one of those elistist bastards (I get the feeling I came off as one in my responses, and apologize if I did :) ) I feel almost dirty these days saying I'm a huge Megaten fan. I mean, honestly, they've gone down the crapper. All of them after Nocturne Maniacs(Which impressed me by being fantastic on every level.... except Dante) were both thematically and gameplay wise rather subpar for Megaten. They've become more mainstream. Less dark, less philosophical, more melodramatic, more anime with lack of a better word (I mean did you ever hear the main character of Nocturne complaining about his love life, going off to fight the bid baddie, or seeking revenge or other melodramatic cliches. No, he was veichle to tell a story and more importantly to see different ideologies and perspectives of the world. ) I mean, with the popularity of Persona 3 everyone's like "Oh, you're a persona 3 fan" and I'd have to say "I like how it worked with Nihilism at some points but it was underdeveloped. For the most part it was a blah game story/gameplay wise. Go play Nocturne, it's a winner. (Or possibly the translations of SMT1/2, damn excellent games. The original Persona is also excellent but talk about bad localization.)" Sorry, just my little rant. I've been having a hard time trying to sell Megaten to people when a good percentage of the localized ones haven't been good examples of Megaten. I didn't bother to mention magnetite, because I assumed that you were one of them more recent megaten fans. I' never figured that you'd be as knowledgeable about Megaten as you are. I too consider myself an elitist megaten bastard. I believe the correct term for us is actually "megatenist" LOL, now that's fucking elitist. They got their own fucking name for them fandom like trekkies. The role of magnetite has been minimalized in the current crop of Megaten games in order to make the gameplay more final fantasy friendly. Whoo hoo, you are the man. (or woman) I hate Dante too, lol. (I hate him in SMT. His dialogue is ridiculous & has no place in a Megaten story. Every piece of dialogue in Nocturne adds another piece to the puzzle. Dante just fucks everything up with his pointless posturing.) A real Megaten fan. Now those type of megaten fans are rare. I was actually worried that you may be another one of those recently converted PS2 Megaten fans who act as if the DDS games have the deepest megaten plots ever. (Simply because DDS is presented in a typical FF/MGS style. With cutscenes galore.) The DDS games do have good plots, but they pale in comparison to the depth of the earlier Megaten titles. Persona 2's SIN/Punishment duology is easily leagues ahead of DDS. SIN/PUnishment were actually two separate stories that connected to each other through a matter of cause & effect. Whereas DDS & DDS 2 felt like one story broken up into two games. As for the P3 comments, lol. They're probably the same people who think MGS is a good example of writing. The problem with our society is that most of us are easily wooed by plots that appeal to our emotions rather than ones that cause us to think. Which is why games will never reach the level of other story telling mediums. (The gaming audience just can't appreciate stories with actual substance. Not that movies are any better. They're just as bad) P3's plot does loosely connect with the other Persona games. If only because the final boss was the avatar of death. Which is exactly what Nyarlathotep hinted at back in Persona 2 EP. (Mankind if left to their own devices would only lead to destruction of their own society.) Granted it's a loose connection at best, and it can only be seen by Persona die hards who can recite the bible of "I'm another you" by heart, lol. You'll get along with us here. Visionerzz & I are part of the old school megaten camp. As well as Kroni. IMO, not even Nocturne is a good gauge of what Megaten is truly like. Real Megaten games usually mix cyberpunk themes with the occult. Nocturne's plot was more biblical in a sense. (Granted so are SMT & SMT II, but at least they existed in an actual world rather than a dead planet that's currently in it's embryo state.) My expertise on megaten basically revolves around the SMT IF timeline. Which mainly revolves around SMT IF, DS, DS 2 Soulhackers, Persona, Persona 2 IS, & Persona 2 EP. the games above are the ones that shamelessly homage/rip off H.P. Lovecraft, Descartes, Carl Jung, etc. They were my favorite videogame stories until I discovered Suda 51's :Kill the Past" Which is every non licensed game that Suda has ever made. The sole exception would probably be K7, due to Capcom's influence in the development. I'm of the opinion that even the la-*test*-('") Fatal Frame will connect with Kill the Past, because Fatal Frame IV's subtitle already exhibits signs that it may share connections to Suda 51's Moonlight Syndrome. I've never beaten a real SMT game save for the japanese & american version of Nocturne. I tried playing through the the first Super famicom SMT, but I quit shortly after Japan got nuked by thor, because I found out that all my money was considered worthless during that part of the game. (I worked my ass off on that shit, lol. Just to have an old man tell me that my currency is no good.) Shit, I'd really like to see you post more about SMT. You should make one epic post about SMT at the other games forum. Or write in a blog or something, because megaten's plot never ceases to amaze me. I've gave up on the series, because it's dead to me now, but I'd sure like to relive it's glory days when the plots were deliciously dark as HELL. I don't have time to play through those long ass games anymore so a first hand account from a real megaten fan who knows their stuff is just as good as any. I've always been trying to convince everyone how deep Megaten's plot actually is. Obviously I'm ill equipped with such an endeavor. I only comprehend the original Persona trilogies plot to a tee. (Than again Persona, Persona 2 IS, & Persona 2 EP used to be my favorite game story of all time.) I only have armchair knowledge of the rest of the themes that megaten games represent. I've never really seen a game that has had a plot that was as philosophical as megaten, & possibly never will. Suda 51's games are more Megaten than recent megaten games. Which is hilarious, because Suda's games aren't trying to be deep. They're more like David Lynch films. In the sense that Suda's games are more of an exercise in how much he can bend the cliches & preconceived notions of the gaming medium. P.S. Do you post at Megaten Haven? Your grasp of Megaten's plot line goes way over my head so you must've spent at least some time in an online community that has an understanding of the game's plot that's equal yours. P.P.S. What's implied with the whole alleged Aleph/ Hijiri connection in Nocturne? I've always seen Nocturne as it's own timeline that exists outside of the original smt timeline & the smt if timeline. What's your favorite twist in Nocturne? Mine has to be the part when you find out Futomimi & Sakahagi were actually polar opposites of each other in their life before the conception. That & the part when you find out that Yuko has been given false hope by a false deity who only feeds her empty promises. Only Deus Ex throws in crazy ass plot twists like that.

Glad you did though. I've read a number of posts on Killer 7 and you're quite intelligent and well informed. Hah hah, intelligent. I consider myself of average intelligence. I just look at everything through different perspectives & angles than most. So I come off as smarter than what I really am, simply because I point out aspects of certain subjects that may have slipped right underneath other people's radars. I do consider myself "street smart" if that amounts to anything. I like Phoenix Wright but I must admit not a big fan. The writings good but it doesn't play to me appreciation for the dark and sophisticated. As for Suikoden, been a fan for a while (Still have to get around to playing 4, 5 and tactics, they're on my list, I even own 5, but still have too many games to work through. I believe Rule of Rose is next on my list (Can you sense the dark and surreal themes prevalent in my game choices?). You'll love Suda 51's Silver Case. Check this post to see pictures of the game. forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=791&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=14" target="_blank">http://killer7.6.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=791&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=14 (SC's story is so vast that one of the chapters was released only as a novel. Which sucks imo. I'd like to know more about Sakura's assessment about Sumio's mental condition.) That game actually reminds me of old school megaten with how dark the overall tone of the game is. SC isn't as philosophical as True Megaten. (Nor is any Suda game for that matter. His games feel more like expressions of art thrown onto a canvas.) The overall plotline is original as hell. It's basically what Killer 7's plot would've been like had Killer 7 not been so damn goofy & corny. I see SC as a darker version of Deus Ex. Deus Ex at least has heroes. SC only has normal people who gradually become insane. One of the main characters from Moonlight Syndrome actually gets killed during the beginning of Silver Case. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3ba_sAneAM One of our main heroes, Sumio is actually part of a terrorist trio that manipulates an entire city to blow itself up. I highly doubt that I'll ever see another game that has a story as dark (& mature.) as Silver Case. I can easily imagine games that would be just as violent, but they certainly wouldn't have the intelligence to rationalize the violence. If I may make a suggestion to you, if you haven't tried any of them try Ogre Battle. They're a lot like Suikoden thematically with the epic conflict and such but tend to be more dark and complex (Both gameplay and story wise). It's definitely one of my favorite series. I love Ogre Battle. Tactics Ogre Let us cling together basically eclipses any plot line that Suikoden has ever had. You'll find that I constantly overrate "Let us cling together" at some threads in this forum. I've heard many great things about the plot of Rule of Roses. (At least two other posters here have constantly recommended ROR to moi.) I should definitely check it out sometime. I greatly underestimated you. You truly do have a good eye for story. Which is rare when it comes to topics about games with "good" plots. Discussions of that type usually result in an orgasm fest about Xenogears or MGS. The plots for those game usually amount to lulz fest melodrama more than actual substance. I must admit I dislike the use of Yin Yang in conversations. I'm not saying you misunderstand it but most people tend to misue it. (I'm a chinese Philosophy minor) They get thrown around a lot as being equal but Yin tends to be exceedingly subordinate to Yang I feel doesn't quite work with the game even though Kun tends to lose his chess games he isn't passive by any means. But that's just my interpretation. Hey, it's good enough for me. I'm redy to learn any time. I actually dislike being in a leader, webmaster role. I'm more used to being the one who's doing the learning. Well any country at any time could be used as long as they stand in opposition. I do believe the mentioning of US/Japan is relevent to the presented story obviously since their the two players and since much of this is in Emir's head they play very much to his duality. True, I just dislike the "significance" that most people put on the East vs West connection. The conflict could've been about any duality from lakers vs the bulls, north & south, gundam vs macross, to Xiang Yu & Liu Bang. You are right though. US/Japan is relevant for the purposes of this story. I'm just saying that I see way too many people in other forums who see the game as an asian vs west concept. Which imo, is inaccurate. East & West are only used, because of how different & alike they are & it's basic form. We could have some argument here. (Chinese philosophy minor, political science major. Not trying to say I know more by mentioning it, just think it's kinda amusing...) such a scenario I see has being unlikely in the current political climate and for the forseeable future. The use of nukes is not only a pandora's box and one person uses them, everyone may. People tend to avoid it. Couple that with as I call it "The don't rock the boat" syndrome (China's powerful because of the current world order, the US is powerful due to the current world order. Everyones policy at the moment is to not rock the boat because it could ruin the setup they have. The powers that be are happy with the current order since it made them powerful and best not to mess with it. That and wars are getting expensive and messy. Best to avoid them in mosts powerful countries minds. But that's just my view) In my mind it's all just posturing and economic competition for the forseeable. Now, will there be a point in the unforseeable future where this could be a problem? I actually elaborate more about that in one of the File 7 threads. It's obvious that nobody would ever do a move that drastic due to economical reason. I think US & China would've clashed eons ago. If it weren't for our world economy. My opinion is that China & Korea only antagonize Japan as a form of manipulation amongst their populace. In order to place all negative attention away from their governments to a neighboring enemy. That enemy is "Imperial Japan" which is a state of mind that no longer exists within the minds of the populace of Japan. Basically it's fiction propagated by the powers that be that masquerade as truth in order to establish a semblance of power & or control over the thoughts of the sheep who know no better. IMO the only country that truly does seem crazy enough to actually launch nukes is N. Korea. In Suda's words he just uses the term "Eastern Threat" Definitely, and Suda is right to think that things need to change to secure Japan's future. (Though I think Taiwan should be the most afraid. One China policy, hurah!) Japan's biggest threat is their shaky alliance on the U.S./Japan peace treaty which is the focal point of Suda's political statement in Killer 7. Japan doesn't have an army. When you contrast that with both Korea & China who do have armies that are capable of invading foreign territory. Japan itself, is basically a sitting duck. Waiting for someone to come to their aid if the need shall ever arise. Killer7's plot is realistic imo, because in the real political world Japan actually is deemed as irrelevant. (Who needs Japan. Korea & China have or are economically catching up to where Japan did back in the 80's.) If a similar scenario were to happen would the U.S. come to Japan's aid, or would they let Japan get destroyed in order to reap the benefits of the former territories of Japan? This is where the basic conflict begins. Japan was supposed to be destroyed during sunset, but somebody manipulated the votes in order for the fireworks to be launched. We find out (In smile) that the person is actually Matsuken. Hik 7 depicts a Japan where it's vassal state, Okinawa has already been usurped by Taiwan, I think or maybe it was Singapore. (Which is strange considering that Taiwan seems to be Japan's only Asian ally in the East.) Japan in Hik7 is on the verge of being engulfed by the Russians to the North, & the other neighboring Asian countries. The asian countries are never specified, but I think it's most obviously Korea & China, because they're the only powers in Asia that could be considered to be on a level that could challenge Japan for hegemony of Asia. (Although China is greater. Coz China always has been the center of Asia. It's only in the last century or two when they finally lost their role to the Japanese.) India is up there as well, but I've never heard of them harbouring any hostile feelings about Japan. I must admit I am at a disadvantage not having played his other games. Not even No More Heroes. Just don't want to buy a Wii... Don't worry about NMH. The story for that game is meant to be a joke. The rest of the games I talk about are only in Japanese. (For now, at least.) While your theory is well thought out I must admit I'd go with the Mara one over it, mainly because it fits better with what's said in HIK7. If it wasn't for that I'd probably go with your theory. (Which I essentially did in my mental first draft, though not with the term ofTulpa since I must admit I have a poor grasp of Tibetan spirituality. I focus mostly on Judo Christian and Buddhism (With some dabblings in Hinduism and Japanese Shintao which is more folk spirirutalism but that's another discussion.) I basically thought of them as mere ideas given shape, representation of opposing ideologies. Yeah I'm well aware of how shinto is more focused on animalistic spiritualism. Shintoism is said to be very primitive when compared to Buddhism. Not that I can say for sure, because I don't personally practice any religion. I just use the term "pagan" as a catch all term. Regardless of it's negative connotations with witches & the like. I'm actually part of an exiled japanese christian bloodline. (Most of us were exiled to the philipines, & have either assimilated back with Japan or have assimilated with Philippine locales. My family is the latter.) I can't say much for Christianity though since I myself don't practice it. My mom is a devout Christian though. I basically speak with basic catch all terms, because I don't really expect most people to comprehend the basics of killer 7 if I were to get too detailed about it. IMO I think Suda's form of spirituality actually coincides with Shintoism the most. Shinto did not have a name until it became necessary to distinguish it from Buddhism. One explanation saw the kami as supernatural beings still caught in the cycle of birth and rebirth (reincarnation). The kami are born, live, die, and are reborn like all other beings in the karmic cycle. Many characters in Suda's games have undergone a transmigration of sorts. Sumio, Sundance, Uehara Kamui to name a few. Harman Smith is suspected in some japanese 2ch posts to be one of them transmigrated beings. Characters like Toriko & Kun Lan are corporeal projections imo. As they both are still among the living, but it's never specifically said who or what their real identity is. (The real Toriko doesn't finally appear until Silver Case 25 Ward. She's just a normal girl in the SC iteration rather than some godlike being like FSR.) The transmigrated beings such as Sumio, Sundance, Uehara Kamui & Harman are unknown variables, because they have many bodies that they inhabit, and there are several beings who are also addressed under their names. Harman & Sundance have at least one dead body that is purported to be them, but who's to say? Kamui (Divine spirit) is unique, because I'm not sure if he's just a myth or a corporeal life form. The real Kamui died 30 something years before the game Silver Case ever begins, but he still lives on as a stand alone complex. A plot twist at the end of the game reveals that you are Kamui, but I'm not sure if Suda ever bothered to elaborate on that. Since the main character is nowhere to be found in the later suda games nor the SC 25 ward sequel. The problem with these games is that their plots are too ridiculously detailed that it's easy to get lost in the sea of clues that Suda's games provide. BTW Are you familiar with the Ikko sect, by any chance. I've read about them during the Sengoku period, and I've no idea what the hell they're about at all. Other than being very militant & using muskets as their primary weapon of choice during the sengoku jidai. (You seem like an Asian history majour. So I'm asking random ass shit now, because I'm curious & I like to know more.) or the Japanese/US issues were easy but things like the Harman/Kun Lan were tricky for me to piece together precisely since I felt I was working with imperfect data (For example I didn't read HIK7 till after writing the post) or I couldn't fit i in with my attempt to be less spiritual, or just plain I had a few ideas in my head that seemed feasible I just needed some Correct. We all are working with imperfect data. Killer 7 doesn't really seem like a game that can possibly be understood on the level that you wish to. Which is k7's downfall imo. Don't expect K7 to be as enlightening as an old school megaten game. K7 seems more like a game that tried to salvage what it could in order to salvage a semblance of story. (The original idea was for K7 to connect with the rest of Suda's games. Which is why K7 contains many references to Moonlight Syndrome, Silver Case & FSR.) Granted the story that k7 did salvage is at least interesting enough to get people talking. It's just too bad that the plot probably could've added so much more to Silver Case's setting had the plot not been changed around. Note: When it comes to HIK7 I think only the Jaco checkbox reports should be counted on as canon to the Silver Case setting, because it doesn't seem to contradict Silver Case. (Too much.) The Killer 7 timeline is what you should look at if you were to look at K7 as a standalone game. The K7 timeline & jaco checkbox actually contradict each other, lol.

About Harman and Kun: I think they represent the ideals of both East and West, warring inside Garcian's mind, probably because Gracian and Emir are opposites. That scene of both getting gunned down, seems like an attemp of Young Harman from releasing him from any biased belief, turning him in a true hitman (IMO hitmans dont give a shit about nothing and only care about getting their job done, basically their god is money)

1. The Death of Samantha and the old man. Yeah, you pretty much answered that point. Harman Smith just figured the killer7 wasn't needed anymore (since the location of the smilies HQ and leader was to be found through Matsuken). At some point I struggled between the notion of the Smith Alliance being an independent faction, separate from the US government. And at the same time, the possibility that it was the US government who tried to bring the SA down, or even Harman Smith himself who staged his own syndicate's decimation. What seems to me the most plausible, is that the Yakumo (a party that was deeply rooted in the US government system) tried to eliminate the Smith Alliance and Harman Smith got a hold of the Yakumo hitman used for the job, Emir. Both the old man and Samantha stopped being useful, as far as I'm concerned. Harman Smith wanted Emir to become aware of his real identity at that particular point in time. Looks like Harman released Matsuken (so that Matsuken wouldn't be captured by the US gov.) so that Matsuken would hand Harman the real leader of the heaven smiles, the last smile (or at least that Matsuken would inadvertedly show them where it is. In case it wasn't just a gentleman's agreement in which Harman promised Mastuken wine and roses in exchange for the last smile). Once Matsuken pinpoints the last smile, Matsuken becomes useless. The only issue left for Emir is to either kill Matsuken or not (Emir was probably a US kid brought up by Japanese and then handed to the US government - so his loyalties are really screwed up). (I don't like to think of them as physical manifestations of ideologies. It feels so, tacky. Kinda detracts from the quality of the game if it's true) I think that the whole game has a deconstructive structure. Which means that there isn't a physical reality within the game. Everything is dream-like and representative.

I didn't bother to mention magnetite, because I assumed that you were one of them more recent megaten fans. I' never figured that you'd be as knowledgeable about Megaten as you are. I too consider myself an elitist megaten bastard. I believe the correct term for us is actually "megatenist" LOL, now that's fucking elitist. They got their own fucking name for them fandom like trekkies. I'm exceedingly elitist about megaten, so it's good to know their is a kindred spirit. :D Seriously, I started with Persona 1, and moved into playing SMT1/2/If/Majin Tensei games WITHOUT translations (Re-miel's faqs existed but hey...) Makes me a little stuck up I believe. The role of magnetite has been minimalized in the current crop of Megaten games in order to make the gameplay more final fantasy friendly. Well, the big problem was that the company was going under because people didn't want complex/deep games anymore in either the US or in Japan. They had to rework megaten. And though it hurts me I do understand. As for Magnetite they were surprisingly good about it in DDS and Nocturne. Nocturne you are in a demon world and thus they don't ened it because it's their natural home (I also liked how your main character could be hit by Hama, made me happy. It was a good gameplay move and a cute touch) And they also mention in DDS that by eating people you absorb their magnetite thus allowing the demon to exist. I give them props for explaining it away. Whoo hoo, you are the man. (or woman) I hate Dante too, lol. (I hate him in SMT. His dialogue is ridiculous & has no place in a Megaten story. Every piece of dialogue in Nocturne adds another piece to the puzzle. Dante just fucks everything up with his pointless posturing.) I am a bit of a DMC fan, I must admit. (I find them a hilarious and amusing distraction. They're very much the "Just for fun games") But damnnit they do not belong in a dark, serious, and mature universe. I mean Nocturne is probably the most mature story I've ever seen in a videogame (It's style of storytelling is very plodding and informative, it lacks melodrama and flash. It's very much all substance and doesn't rely on trite plot devices) And then the man comes and ruins it. I appreciated the otherManiacs additions but just not Dante... A real Megaten fan. Now those type of megaten fans are rare. I was actually worried that you may be another one of those recently converted PS2 Megaten fans who act as if the DDS games have the deepest megaten plots ever. (Simply because DDS is presented in a typical FF/MGS style. With cutscenes galore.) The DDS games do have good plots, but they pale in comparison to the depth of the earlier Megaten titles. Persona 2's SIN/Punishment duology is easily leagues ahead of DDS. SIN/PUnishment were actually two separate stories that connected to each other through a matter of cause & effect. Whereas DDS & DDS 2 felt like one story broken up into two games. MGS is better then most story wise. Which is kinda sad actually. The games are so pretentious it hurts. They think they're so smart when they're basically stating relatively simple premises. Sigh.... Those PS2 fans have no idea what they're missing. There's nothing wrong with lots of cutscenes as long as they say important things. But often they do not sadly. DDS was alright, definitely better then the current batch of RPG's in circulation but when I see how far things have fallen in makes me sad. (I was happy DDS went against the mold and tried working with a Hindu themed game. It was a pleasing change. It had a lot of potential but it kept on going the easy route storyline wise as opposed to taking the difficult route of Nocturne.) As for Persona 2, I enjoyed them but I gotta be a bit elitist here. I found they dealt with a lot of the same ideas as Persona 1 but were a bit less mature about it (Actually, relating to what you said before they were closer to Persona 3, more about people then the thinking in comparison to Persona 1). They had that annoying "anime" feel the new megaten games have (But then Persona's always been the "anime" megaten series) And gameplay wise I found them to be very washed out. They were actually the first step in making megaten gameplay simplistic and mainstream. If I was to say my grea-*test*-('") joy in Persona two thematically was the creation of EP. They threw out the Carl Jung collective unconcious idea which was rather cool, but then the one person remembering making everything happen again was fascinating. I liked the idea of one of the heroes selfishly ruining everything because he lvoed to much. Played well into the very bittersweet EP ending which was very much in Megaten style. You'll get along with us here. Visionerzz & I are part of the old school megaten camp. As well as Kroni. That's quite good. Far to few old school Megaten gamers around these days... IMO, not even Nocturne is a good gauge of what Megaten is truly like. Real Megaten games usually mix cyberpunk themes with the occult. I'll agree on that. Nocturne does ditch the cyberpunk (I'm a huge cyberpunk fan I must admit). However I believe that Nocturne is actually the height of Megaten games. (Which is ironic because before I played it I bashed what I saw in previews because it wasn't old school enough. "Where's my dual combat? And formations? And four person party, bleh! And what's with this lack of alignment? And no cyberpunk?... Boy was I proven wrong I admit.") Gameplay wise the ability to modify your character and your demons in the game gives so much flexibility. Ass good difficulty and press turns to the mix and you get a complex system the rewards good planning and involves lots of thinking. A+++ Sound and graphics design are beautiful. They did an excellent job making a fascinating world through image and sound. Story wise the game is intelligent and presents a number of fascinating ideas on how the world should work (Much Like Invisible War) However the sophistication of the way it tells the story outshines all Megaten. Megaten games tend to be deep and intelligent but tehy tend to at times get bogged down with sillines, or cliche plot devices, or general anime melodrama. Nocturne sheds all of this and goes straight for teh philosophy. It lets you observe a dark and cruel world and let you shape it to your whim without having to worry about ideas like "character development" or "Comic relief" or other such worries. The game is the true definition of a mature game. (I think one of the most telling moments is when Hijiri dies, and there's no tears shed, no dramatic "No I must kills you for this" from the main character. You just watch the event with silence and then once you've absorbed it's meaning you walk away. It's beautiful.) Nocturne's plot was more biblical in a sense. (Granted so are SMT & SMT II, but at least they existed in an actual world rather than a dead planet that's currently in it's embryo state.) My expertise on megaten basically revolves around the SMT IF timeline. Which mainly revolves around SMT IF, DS, DS 2 Soulhackers, Persona, Persona 2 IS, & Persona 2 EP. If I may be elitist for a moment. You're most familiar with what I consider the "Middle ages" or "The beginning of the decline of megaten." I've played basically every non last bible/devil kids megaten game(Those two series don't exist in my mind) and the height of Megaten in my mind has been SMT1/2 + Megami Tensei 2 + Majin Tensei 2(At least gameplay wise, I can't read the story) And Nocturne oddly enough. Here's the lowdown in my mind at least. Era 1 (Megami Tensei 1): Bad games Era 2 (Megami Tensei 2, SMT 1 + 2, Majin Tensei 2) Excellent games with intelligent stories. While they still have problems due to being written in days before intelligent writing really sifted into gaming. Their premises are intelligent however. The gameplay is also complex. Era 3 (SMT IF, Persona 1+2, Soul Hackers, Devil Summoner, Nocturne): This era's a bit strange but generally marks a decline in Megaten. The games in general are getting simpler gameplay wise and story wise they're a shift away from intellectual ideas towards more personal philosophy and emotional thought. Though things are very strange, if I may.... SMT IF Is SMT 2 with the slightly worse gameplay and a much worse story. Far less intelligent and philosophical. Definitely marks the shift towards a more personal, emotion based story. Persona 1 is close to old Megaten. Intelligent story but very personal and emotional so definitely part of the shift. Gameplay is exceedingly complex and very old school in that manner. Definitely the most gameplay complex megaten game. Soul Hackers/Devil Summoner are odd. Simple stories, complex oldschool gameplay. Very strange mix. Persona 2 is where we really begin to see the shift to the modern era. The story, while not simple, is riddled with anime style melodrama and emotion. It's a very very personal charcter driven story (Megaten games used to be plot driven, unlike most stories which are character driven. Nocturne for example is completely plot driven.). The gameplay is also getting dumbed down. No moon phases, no dual combat, simple fusion system, lack of Persona 1's complex formation system. Some additions are made but all in all things get simpler Era 4 (DDS, The new Devil Summoner, Persona 3: Attempting to make the games more mainstream to to greater focus on characters, more anime feel and simplifying gameplay. Left out were Majin Tensei 1 and Ronde, due to them being very strange games. I'd put Ronde in era 1 if not for the fact it was released in like 97. the games above are the ones that shamelessly homage/rip off H.P. Lovecraft, Descartes, Carl Jung, etc. Well, honestly a lot of good philosophy in games is based of famous peoples ideas. At least they chose some intelligent people to rip off. I also can't hold using HP Lovecraft against them. I love HP lovecrafts writing and at least Nyarlothep is something like HP lovecraft's Nyarlothep as opposed to most modern uses of HP Lovecraft which are doing a great disservice to it. They were my favorite videogame stories until I discovered Suda 51's :Kill the Past" Which is every non licensed game that Suda has ever made. The sole exception would probably be K7, due to Capcom's influence in the development. I'm of the opinion that even the la-*test*-('") Fatal Frame will connect with Kill the Past, because Fatal Frame IV's subtitle already exhibits signs that it may share connections to Suda 51's Moonlight Syndrome. These kill the past games sound interesting, I do wish to try them. I must admit I couldn't get into Fatal Frame. I only played the first one but I found it kinda average, and normal. Just my personal thought honestly. Silent Hill is my taste in horror. Dark, surreal, tormenting, unrelenting. I do indeed love them thematically. Back it up with beautiful artistic design and excellent music and they're great game. I've never beaten a real SMT game save for the japanese & american version of Nocturne. I tried playing through the the first Super famicom SMT, but I quit shortly after Japan got nuked by thor, because I found out that all my money was considered worthless during that part of the game. (I worked my ass off on that shit, lol. Just to have an old man tell me that my currency is no good.) At least you've beaten Nocturne :D Seriously though, you need to beat SMT 1/2. They're wonderful games, truly some of the best Megaten's produced. Gameplay, story, concept work, audio they're wonderful games. They've probably touched me the most profoundly out of any megaten game (Well, those and Nocturne. If you can't tell it's probably my favorite game ever). On the money thing SMT 1 and 2 are kinda brutal like that, but you get used to it. It's an unforgiving world afterall... You should really give it another shot. They're long, they're vicious, but man are they wonderful. But again, just my opinion. Shit, I'd really like to see you post more about SMT. You should make one epic post about SMT at the other games forum. Or write in a blog or something, because megaten's plot never ceases to amaze me. I'd be more then willing to spread the good word. But I wouldn't know where to begin. I've gave up on the series, because it's dead to me now, but I'd sure like to relive it's glory days when the plots were deliciously dark as HELL. I don't have time to play through those long ass games anymore so a first hand account from a real megaten fan who knows their stuff is just as good as any. That's tragic. There are so many good ones you haven't played. But real life does take precedence. Still, dead to you? Are you really that bitter about the new games? Personally, I do truly hold out hope for a good one eventually. The gave me Nocturne, they could do it again... I've always been trying to convince everyone how deep Megaten's plot actually is. Obviously I'm ill equipped with such an endeavor. I only comprehend the original Persona trilogies plot to a tee. (Than again Persona, Persona 2 IS, & Persona 2 EP used to be my favorite game story of all time.) Trust me, I've been trying for a while too. While I am better equipped to do it it's hard because while I have convinced people the games are intelligent, they're long and hard and when most people play games they want to relax not spend hours of grueling work just to think a lot. Also I apologize, you do love them but I've been kinda mean to the Persona games. They're quite good, but I have to give credit where credits due in my mind. My hearts with SMT far more then Persona. I only have armchair knowledge of the rest of the themes that megaten games represent. I've never really seen a game that has had a plot that was as philosophical as megaten, & possibly never will. Suda 51's games are more Megaten than recent megaten games. Which is hilarious, because Suda's games aren't trying to be deep. They're more like David Lynch films. In the sense that Suda's games are more of an exercise in how much he can bend the cliches & preconceived notions of the gaming medium. I really would like to play more Suda, he sounds excellent. (And if Killer 7 is any indication of his other games I'd be happy) And Megaten is a wonderful thing. I've played so much in my day and the grea-*test*-('") tragedy is that there is not more. P.S. Do you post at Megaten Haven? Your grasp of Megaten's plot line goes way over my head so you must've spent at least some time in an online community that has an understanding of the game's plot that's equal yours. I used to post a long time ago, before the great brain drain. I think left with it. If I may be elitist again for a second.... Back in the old days, on the Summoner Board (The board before Haven existed) there was a small group of us who talked about Megaten (Famous people like Re-Miel, Tom/Shivalva, Masakado. I was the newbie back then, I didn't have the wealth of knowledge I had now.) and it was small and cool and we were all very knowledgeable, though I will admit elitist at times. But as the fanbase expanded someone opened Megaten Haven and people moved there. It was good at first but over time it became a haven for drama, immaturity, and lack good discussion on Megaten so most of the old people packed and left. I still post from time to time. If you've ever seen posts by "King of Dusk" it was my old online handle before Isoulle. I admit, I just never found the sort of good, intelligent discussion I wanted about megaten on Haven, they were good guys but they felt immature, very much the teen angst crowd. (And more of them every new game release too. They really started with EP's release in North America) They're good people, but you should have seen the childish drama. Flame wars, namecalling, assanine discussions amount Megaten. Really killed ones interest. Most people packed and went to the Atlus boards. After that, I have no idea. I think the oldies mostly quit but I may be wrong. I should swing by again sometime.... P.P.S. What's implied with the whole alleged Aleph/ Hijiri connection in Nocturne? I've always seen Nocturne as it's own timeline that exists outside of the original smt timeline & the smt if timeline. I think it's more of a nod then anything to old fans. They're probably not "connected" in the typical way but there are always reoccurring themes and events throughout the series that connect them more thematically then direct storyline wise. What's your favorite twist in Nocturne? Mine has to be the part when you find out Futomimi & Sakahagi were actually polar opposites of each other in their life before the conception. That & the part when you find out that Yuko has been given false hope by a false deity who only feeds her empty promises. Only Deus Ex throws in crazy ass plot twists like that. I very much enjoyed the entire story story of Nocturne though I saw it more as a collection of ideas and theories and much less a "story" in the conventional sense. I really liked Yuko as a character. She was so strong at the beginning, speaking of a new world and how she would save you and the world. But she was weak, all she knew was that things were wrong and wanted the quick fix. She embraced blindly change and when she saw that it was not to her liking she got lost and her true weakness was exposed. It was great how the one who spoke of strength and change was weak an indescissve. She very much speaks of some people in our society who thinks things should change and say that they should be in charge to do it because they know what's right. But try asking those people what should be done, they don't know. They back down and stutter and realize that the world is actually probably a better place then they can make it. They have good intentions but it's easy to say things are wrong, it's hard to know how to fix them. It was quite beautiful. Favorite moment? Probably when Chiaki killed the Mannikens. It filled me with joy to see the only true "good guys" fail miserably. Really shows how megaten is different from the rest. Power is beautiful though, isn't it? :D Well, hope you found that interesting. I'll tackle part two later, that took me 2 hours. You're an interesting and intelligent guy and I look forward to conversing with you some more.

BTW, was going to post this in my response, but I forgot. it's a list of my Megaten credentials... Megami Tensei 1 - Barely played Megami Tensei 2 - 20% done SMT - Beat in Japanese SNES, Japanese PS1, and Translated Rom SMT2- Beat Japanese SNES, Japanese PS1, About 10% finished translated Rom SMT If - Got to last boss then it deleted my save. Don't have the heart to play it again. Majin Tensei - Completed Majin Tensei 2 - Completed on 3 of the 5 different alignment paths Majin Tensei Ronde - Completed Persona 1 - Completed (70% through JPN Snow Queen quest version) Innocent Sin - Beaten EP - Japanese version beaten Devil Summoner - Beaten Soul Hackers - 80% done (Gotta get around to finishing it) SMT 3 - JPN Nocturne and Maniacs beaten. US Maniacs beaten DDS 1+2 - Beaten Devil Summoner vs Super Power Army - Gotta get around to playing that Persona 3 - beaten Maken X - Technically not a Megaten game, but beaten deSPIRIA - Should be a Megaten game but isn't, beaten. I really need to finish writing my review of it and post it up. I believe I got all of them there....

Didn't know there were other Megaten freaks out there! I can't consider myself one yet, but I've also played the translated versions of SMT1 and 2, besides checking out the PC engine and Mega CD versions of SMT. I just got stuck somewhere in SMT2, when I was to find those missing statue parts. This was a long time ago, but I think they were that of Masakado. I need to go back to it and proceed to Nocturne. It looks very good. The first site I checked out regarding the series and spinoffs is http://shindds.free.fr/. It's french, but I'm fluent in French, so it's not really a problem to me. Anyhow, the site is extremely comprehensive. It mentions and lists stuff about Megami Tensei he must've found out about in someone's underwear. The screen name Isoulle suggests something French... Do you happen to be the site's webmaster, given those impressive credentials (I had to ask)?

And now for part 2. Hah hah, intelligent. I consider myself of average intelligence. I just look at everything through different perspectives & angles than most. So I come off as smarter than what I really am, simply because I point out aspects of certain subjects that may have slipped right underneath other people's radars. I do consider myself "street smart" if that amounts to anything. Then I apologize for calling you intelligent. :lol: Seriously though what is intelligence? Is it creativity, perhaps the ability to memorize, or is it the ability to cooralate differing point of views and ideas in order to come up with useful and relevant information? I leave that decision up to others but intelligence can be quite broadly defined in my mind. You'll love Suda 51's Silver Case. Check this post to see pictures of the game. forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=791&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=14" target="_blank">http://killer7.6.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=791&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=14 (SC's story is so vast that one of the chapters was released only as a novel. Which sucks imo. I'd like to know more about Sakura's assessment about Sumio's mental condition.) If I get a chance to play it I'll definitely take it. Sucks though that Japanese is a requirement to play these games, especially since I'm learning Chinese instead.... Wo Bu Hui Ribenhua. :) That game actually reminds me of old school megaten with how dark the overall tone of the game is. SC isn't as philosophical as True Megaten. (Nor is any Suda game for that matter. His games feel more like expressions of art thrown onto a canvas.) The overall plotline is original as hell. It's basically what Killer 7's plot would've been like had Killer 7 not been so damn goofy & corny. I see SC as a darker version of Deus Ex. Deus Ex at least has heroes. SC only has normal people who gradually become insane. One of the main characters from Moonlight Syndrome actually gets killed during the beginning of Silver Case. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3ba_sAneAM I didn't find Killer 7's particuarly corny though it did hit goofy at a number of points. Oh the Handsome men... Deus Ex does have heroes, but Invisible war is less hero driven. Much more ambiguous. Sadly it's a worse game. I seem to get the impression that you're a huge SC fan? I should definitely look into it. I like artsy stuff, and really like Suda's style. Still, comparing it to Deus EX seems odd. Deus ex is much less artsy and much more philosophical, which sounds in opposition to your statements on Suda's games... I love Ogre Battle. Tactics Ogre Let us cling together basically eclipses any plot line that Suikoden has ever had. You'll find that I constantly overrate "Let us cling together" at some threads in this forum. Glad to know someone else appreciates it as much as I do. It's definitely the best ogre battle game. Great gameplay, good length, and a truly epic story. Very dark and gritty too, it doesn't fall into the typical videogame/anime cliches. It's a much more realistic portrayal of ethnic conflict (Very 1990's issue) and the morality of selling ones soul to achieve their ideals. I've heard many great things about the plot of Rule of Roses. (At least two other posters here have constantly recommended ROR to moi.) I should definitely check it out sometime. I greatly underestimated you. You truly do have a good eye for story. Which is rare when it comes to topics about games with "good" plots. Discussions of that type usually result in an orgasm fest about Xenogears or MGS. The plots for those game usually amount to lulz fest melodrama more than actual substance. lol. I assume you're so used to people not knowing what they talk about that you're surprised when someone does? Personally I still give people the benefit of the doubt but every day it gets a little harder... But then a good story is only one facet of a game, and honestly in my mind less important then the gameplay. I mean, it is still a game, and thus it must be fun to play! As for MGS and Xenogears to be fair they are better then most. The writers of each tend to have a better grasp of history/mythology/metaphysics then most game story writers. They're main weakness is in their execution where they feel the need to but in silly or melodramatics pieces in their plots which tend to detract from the entire thing. It's like they have a good idea but they don't know how to fll out the rest of the story without throwing in the usual cliches so what we get it a game with 80% cliche trite with 20% good stuff scattered all around. Hey, it's good enough for me. I'm redy to learn any time. I actually dislike being in a leader, webmaster role. I'm more used to being the one who's doing the learning. When you're in a leading role people expect you to have all the answers, which is kind of unfortunate. However to be fair you do know the most about Suda stuff it seems. (When I was reading posts on the games I'd sift through for yours since they were the most informative.) But basically Yin is female and Yang is male. Yin is subservient and weaker then Yang. As such this whole equal thing most people think of is an attempt to rewrite history so China doesn't seem so sexist in the past (Which like most other cultures it was). I'm not well versed in the topic, my preference is Confucianism and Legalism but that's one thing I keep in mind. The Chinese studies prof at my university does rants about problems she has with society and they tend to stick with you... True, I just dislike the "significance" that most people put on the East vs West connection. The conflict could've been about any duality from lakers vs the bulls, north & south, gundam vs macross, to Xiang Yu & Liu Bang. I dunno, I think Kun Lan represents the one who is portayed in the negative light at any time and thus is different from a duality that is less ideologically charged. IE. If everyones blaming Japan, Japan's Kun Lan, if it's all the US fault according to everyone, the US is Kun Lan. Perhaps I'm wrong but Kun Lan does represent the villanized. And personally, I'm a Tsao Tsao man. Don't get me started in Xiang Yu and Liu Bang.... :D You are right though. US/Japan is relevant for the purposes of this story. I'm just saying that I see way too many people in other forums who see the game as an asian vs west concept. Which imo, is inaccurate. East & West are only used, because of how different & alike they are & it's basic form. Well, I'd say they're used because it ties into the relevant issue Suda wishes to cover, article 9. East and West are also used because society seems to be thinking this sort of opposition exists more and more as a whole. Which is ironic that people who play the game think East v West so very important because the game says that there's a problem with that line of thinking and is merely playing into the manipulation of the powers that be. Kind of amusing when you consider.. I actually elaborate more about that in one of the File 7 threads. It's obvious that nobody would ever do a move that drastic due to economical reason. I think US & China would've clashed eons ago. If it weren't for our world economy. My opinion is that China & Korea only antagonize Japan as a form of manipulation amongst their populace. In order to place all negative attention away from their governments to a neighboring enemy. That enemy is "Imperial Japan" which is a state of mind that no longer exists within the minds of the populace of Japan. Basically it's fiction propagated by the powers that be that masquerade as truth in order to establish a semblance of power & or control over the thoughts of the sheep who know no better. IMO the only country that truly does seem crazy enough to actually launch nukes is N. Korea. In Suda's words he just uses the term "Eastern Threat" War is in an odd place now. It's expensive and tends to be politically unpopular. Doesn't mean it won't happen but it is getting harder and harder every year to mobilize support. I would like to think that the US won't mobilize again for years due to the staggering cost of Iraq. But you never know with the proper propaganda (And thus back to Killer 7...) But I definitely agree with you. However on a note, Chinese propaganda. I don't know about South Korea but I know that the Chinese populace are basically not listening to it any more. They've seen so much crap that they know their government is evil and any attempts to say otherwise are false. Have you seen the movie Hero? It's basically pro-CCP propaganda. The message? "We're very very evil but if we get ousted we'll have the warring states again." Kinda of shows how badly viewed a government is when it's own propaganda admits it's evil and goes with a "devil you know" argument. Japan's biggest threat is their shaky alliance on the U.S./Japan peace treaty which is the focal point of Suda's political statement in Killer 7. Japan doesn't have an army. When you contrast that with both Korea & China who do have armies that are capable of invading foreign territory. Japan itself, is basically a sitting duck. Waiting for someone to come to their aid if the need shall ever arise. Well, Japan does have a large army and quite high tech army. However they're problem is they don't have any power projection (It's a defense force) and they lack complex command and control functions (They rely on the US) They have been rearming though. We'll see how that goes. I think Japan can rely on the US for a while still, doesn't mean they don't have to prepare for that far future. With China getting more powerful and Russia starting to become nuiscance again the US sees Japan as it's first line of defense, and it's strategic base of operations point for dealing with Russia/China. This is where the basic conflict begins. Japan was supposed to be destroyed during sunset, but somebody manipulated the votes in order for the fireworks to be launched. We find out (In smile) that the person is actually Matsuken. I must have completely missed that point. The ghosts of the two old men said 80 million Japanese dead, and said retribution would come. Am I missing something here? Hik 7 depicts a Japan where it's vassal state, Okinawa has already been usurped by Taiwan, I think or maybe it was Singapore. (Which is strange considering that Taiwan seems to be Japan's only Asian ally in the East.) Being a vassal state isn't so bad. It's working out pretty well for my country. (I'm Canadian) :) That is strange. Taiwan's not bitter because during the occupation Taiwan is the one country Japan didn't perform atrocities on. They actually ran a pretty good operation there from what I heard. Japan in Hik7 is on the verge of being engulfed by the Russians to the North, & the other neighboring Asian countries. The asian countries are never specified, but I think it's most obviously Korea & China, because they're the only powers in Asia that could be considered to be on a level that could challenge Japan for hegemony of Asia. (Although China is greater. Coz China always has been the center of Asia. It's only in the last century or two when they finally lost their role to the Japanese.) India is up there as well, but I've never heard of them harbouring any hostile feelings about Japan. Russia isn't terribly hostile towards Japan from what I read, they're just going imperialist again. They're having problems since they're dirt poor and the Americans and the EU always have a close eye on them. Old habits die hard hm? Japan's been the head dog for a while, but aside from around WW2 hegemony's been out of their grasp. China's going for it but playing smart. They learned from the US example. Don't conquer the world, buy it. As for India, it's asian but it doesn't deal a lot with asian politics. It's actually a lot more western. It tends to deal a lot more with US/EU then most of Asia (Does do dealing with China but they REALLY don't like each other. India-Russia-China have some threeway bad history.) India's current concern is infrastructure expansion and not going to war with Pakistan. East Asia is barely in the picture. Yeah I'm well aware of how shinto is more focused on animalistic spiritualism. Shintoism is said to be very primitive when compared to Buddhism. Not that I can say for sure, because I don't personally practice any religion. I just use the term "pagan" as a catch all term. Regardless of it's negative connotations with witches & the like. Nothing wrong with that. When I hear pagan though I think of European religions absorbed by Christianity. It's a technicality but I'm one of those "academic" types. Get all picky about my words... I'm actually part of an exiled japanese christian bloodline. (Most of us were exiled to the philipines, & have either assimilated back with Japan or have assimilated with Philippine locales. My family is the latter.) I can't say much for Christianity though since I myself don't practice it. My mom is a devout Christian though. I basically speak with basic catch all terms, because I don't really expect most people to comprehend the basics of killer 7 if I were to get too detailed about it. I study religions, so I've got some good knowledge. Only major religion I haven't studied, and it saddens me, is Islam. I hope they offer some Islam courses again soon... That's understandable. Most people aren't dumb but lack knowledge in certain fields. I don't know engineering, and engineers don't know eastern philosophy, neither are stupid we just focused on different fields. I'm sure you know that, but just saying. It makes talking about these things difficult with other people since a lot of people don't have this particular knowledge base. It's a rare one, and I can't blame them, I mean, how practical is it for surviving in the modern world? IMO I think Suda's form of spirituality actually coincides with Shintoism the most. Quote: Shinto did not have a name until it became necessary to distinguish it from Buddhism. One explanation saw the kami as supernatural beings still caught in the cycle of birth and rebirth (reincarnation). The kami are born, live, die, and are reborn like all other beings in the karmic cycle. Many characters in Suda's games have undergone a transmigration of sorts. Sumio, Sundance, Uehara Kamui to name a few. Harman Smith is suspected in some japanese 2ch posts to be one of them transmigrated beings. Characters like Toriko & Kun Lan are corporeal projections imo. As they both are still among the living, but it's never specifically said who or what their real identity is. (The real Toriko doesn't finally appear until Silver Case 25 Ward. She's just a normal girl in the SC iteration rather than some godlike being like FSR.) The transmigrated beings such as Sumio, Sundance, Uehara Kamui & Harman are unknown variables, because they have many bodies that they inhabit, and there are several beings who are also addressed under their names. Harman & Sundance have at least one dead body that is purported to be them, but who's to say? Again I will refrain from commenting on his other games since I lack the knowledge but the more I read the more what Harman/Kun seem to be is open to interpretation. Are they merely new people taking up the proverbial mantle, are they reincarnated spirits, are they gods who interfere. Obviously some seem more likely then others. HIK7 does mention Kun Lan being a reincarnated Mara so should we take that since it's directly given to us? He just reincarnates over and over and does it all again? I'm not giving any answers, I'm just talking. Lol. Seriously, you've given a lot of thought to this and your ideas seem to make sense. However I may be wrong but it seems like when it boils down to it we have a bunch of facts tha when pieced together give us different images depending on how we sort them. That's post modernism for ya hm? The problem with these games is that their plots are too ridiculously detailed that it's easy to get lost in the sea of clues that Suda's games provide. Agreed. BTW Are you familiar with the Ikko sect, by any chance. I've read about them during the Sengoku period, and I've no idea what the hell they're about at all. Other than being very militant & using muskets as their primary weapon of choice during the sengoku jidai. (You seem like an Asian history majour. So I'm asking random ass shit now, because I'm curious & I like to know more.) More of a bit of everything Asian major. Lol. Technically religious studies but I've got my hands in everything. I've studied Japan a bit but they never game up. Sorry, wish I could be more helpful. My field of choice is China and I only have bits and pieces of other regions. Correct. We all are working with imperfect data. Killer 7 doesn't really seem like a game that can possibly be understood on the level that you wish to. Which is k7's downfall imo. Don't expect K7 to be as enlightening as an old school megaten game. K7 seems more like a game that tried to salvage what it could in order to salvage a semblance of story. (The original idea was for K7 to connect with the rest of Suda's games. Which is why K7 contains many references to Moonlight Syndrome, Silver Case & FSR.) I don't think it's a downfall necessarily. It feels like Suda cast his net wide covering a lot of problems in modern society and left it up to people to merely discuss it and provoke thought about said issues. It's one of those games that I wished my philosophy friend had played so we could just sit down and talk for hours. It says important things, but that's not the end of it. It's also about the sort of important conclusions you come to talking to friends about it. It's partially about sparking discussions, and making people willing to look at the issues for the first part, or in a different way. On a Megaten note, they do tend to make more points. A lot more of "Here's a philosophical question, let's examine it." You should play SMT 2. It's the most tragic of all SMT games in my mind. The story is so sad, so melancholy. You mentioned how Nyarlothep mentions what will happen to humanity if it goes along it's path, SMT2 shows what happen. It really captures the feeling of hopelessness and inherent weakness of humanity. I admit I find it fascinating. Granted the story that k7 did salvage is at least interesting enough to get people talking. Hmm, this is what I get for replying paragraph by paragraph rather then reading the entire thing and then responding. But yes, I agree. :D But I admit I really enjoyed the story. It wasn't a "story" in the conventional sense but I did enjoy what was given and the ideas present. I enjoyed the themes, the characters, even how it was presented in its disjointed way. It made me think and that's what I require from a good story. It's just too bad that the plot probably could've added so much more to Silver Case's setting had the plot not been changed around. Note: When it comes to HIK7 I think only the Jaco checkbox reports should be counted on as canon to the Silver Case setting, because it doesn't seem to contradict Silver Case. (Too much.) The Killer 7 timeline is what you should look at if you were to look at K7 as a standalone game. The K7 timeline & jaco checkbox actually contradict each other, lol I don't know how it would have worked with Silver Case since again, never played it. I did thoroughly enjoy it by itself however. You do seem like a huge fan of Silver Case though so I can definitely see you wanting the two to work together. Maybe I'll agree if I ever get a chance to play it but I think K7 stands very well by itself and is thoroughly entertaining. Either way, phew, long post. Sorry about the delay but these are time consuming. Talk to you later. Regards.

Whoa, you're King of Dusk? I would've never expected somebody like you to stop by this shit hole, lol. First Tachikoma, now you. Damn , should've said that earlier. I assumed. (From your original post.) That you were another one of those people who may have gotten Megaten information from that faulty, ill conceived Megaten article contained at Hardcore gaming 101. The 101 article is a good piece of written work. I just feel that it's a bit misleading. I remember Shivalva (He had a SMT IF avatar) & Masakado (Spooky avatar). I used to look up to them. I always wanted to partake in the convos that I saw most of y'all had at both gamefaqs, megaten haven, and atlus, but I knew I would never be able to keep up with y'all, & I still wouldn't, lol. (I'm just a lurker of no importance at haven & atlus.) It seems that Masa doesn't waste his time with stupid videogame boards anymore. Last I saw, he was translating those megaten novels. (He's right when he says they're trashy. I was expecting much more from the books.) I haven't seen Shivalva since the American release of Nocturne. I'm exceedingly elitist about megaten, so it's good to know their is a kindred spirit. :D Seriously, I started with Persona 1, and moved into playing SMT1/2/If/Majin Tensei games WITHOUT translations (Re-miel's faqs existed but hey...) Makes me a little stuck up I believe. I too started with the original Persona. (Didn't we all?) However I went the opposite direction & worked my way up with Soul Hackers & the like. Rather than going to the original source. I didn't finally play Majin Tensei (The strat games) & the two Super famicom SMT's until I started emulating. I even have the sega cd version emulated. I have played all of the main Megaten games. (I don't consider last bible or devikids, or whatever the fuck it's called as megaten either.) I just haven't beaten all of them. (Most of them take me over 80 hours to complete.) Have you played SMT NINE? That game seems to be set in the original timeline. (Or at least the original timeline that began with the Super Famicom games.) It at least feels more inline with SMT & SMT II than SMT III did. What's the plot line for Spiral Nemesis anyway? I beat the game, and I got this crazy ass ending where the world exploded all of a sudden. (After a seemingly happy ending. The original Persona is probably the only megaten I've played that did not have a bittersweet ending.) If I recall Majin Tensei exists in an alternate universe that exists outside of the SMT timeline (1999 Japan destroyed by nukes) , and the SMT IF timeline (1999 Japan destroyed by The Oracle of Maiya.) Have you tried Maken X/Maken Shao? I love the art direction. Sure, it's not a megaten game, but it feels more like a Megaten game than the current batch of Megaten games do. Don't worry about coming off as stuck up. I probably come off as a stuck up bitch myself ever since I worked my way from K7, to FSR, SC & finally MS. I indirectly found out that all of suda's games are connected to each other after playing through Silver Case. If I may be elitist for a moment. You're most familiar with what I consider the "Middle ages" or "The beginning of the decline of megaten." That's tragic. There are so many good ones you haven't played. But real life does take precedence. I believe there's a misunderstanding here. I specialize in SMT IF as in they're the ones that I own. They're the ones where I can tell you the little details & intracies that I've seen from those games. LOL, I once had a dream that I was in this blocky ass Soul Hackers 3d VR world years before I even owned SH. I've played almost every single Megaten save for the NES games, last bible, devi kids, & the online games. I just haven't beaten all of them. Mainly due to time. I used to play SMT II regularly, but I never really got far due to no translation at the time. I dropped the original because of the frustration I explained above. I was planning to buy me some big ass guns, lol. Also I apologize, you do love them but I've been kinda mean to the Persona games. They're quite good, but I have to give credit where credits due in my mind. My hearts with SMT far more then Persona. Heh, no biggie. I used to insult Innocent Sin & Eternal Punishment like hell all the time, back when I used to post at gamefaqs. I went by the name Krhyme Assassyn at game faqs. Ima pretty stuck up "know it all" bastard. Whom everybody hates. I'm hated so much that most people can't even remember my name. (I originally went with Topdrunkee, but my account was banned within two weeks, lol. I've been banned in over 12 different websites/forums.) I usually get mistaken for that Kouli guy. (The guy who makes all them useless faqs that spoil the entire plot.) Whenever I do say something that people agree with. (I don't know why either. We have completely different personalities.) In fact, you sounded exactly like the way I used to sound like when ever I'd talk about the Persona 2 games. (Back in the days when I would post at the Persona 2 Eternal Punishment boards.) I hated the gameplay, the simplified battle system. I hated almost everything save for the characters. Although I finally realized how much I liked SIn/Punishment after playing through that shit fest, Devil Summoner 3. I didn't bother with DDS 2, but the game's story sounds interesting as hell. Unfortunately I was utterly disappointed by the first DDS. (I forced myself to beat the game, because I paid full price for it.) MGS is better then most story wise. Which is kinda sad actually. The games are so pretentious it hurts. They think they're so smart when they're basically stating relatively simple premises. Sigh.... No doubt. I don't deny that the background stories are at least decent. In fact I think the background stories/timelines are good. It's the plots that are used in the actual games that piss me off. IMO, what really hurts the stories of MGS games is the way they tell them. When you look at games like Nocturne or Killer 7. They both treat their audience as smart & mature enough to figure out the plot themselves. They both show & display to you the ideas that they want get across to their audience. (Although I believe that K7 doesn't really have a message outside of the political arc. K7 could've had one, but I believe the "meaning" it may have had got lost while trying to salvage the story.) MGS, Mgs what bothers moi about MGS is how the games treat their audiences as if they're dumb & ignorant. So in order to get their point across. The games preach to you non stop like the French man from that lame ass Matrix movie. (I forget which one. I have relatives who worked on that film.) That's not the end of it though. What bothers me about MGS is it's hypocritical message. The games tell you to live for yourself, and to be free from outside influences. Yet the game (Solid Snake no less.) is telling you straight up how to live your life. How can anyone take something like that seriously when the messenger doesn't even bother to practice what they preach? I just find that quite irksome. As for Persona 2, I enjoyed them but I gotta be a bit elitist here. I found they dealt with a lot of the same ideas as Persona 1 but were a bit less mature about it (Actually, relating to what you said before they were closer to Persona 3, more about people then the thinking in comparison to Persona 1). They had that annoying "anime" feel the new megaten games have (But then Persona's always been the "anime" megaten series) And gameplay wise I found them to be very washed out. They were actually the first step in making megaten gameplay simplistic and mainstream. If I was to say my grea-*test*-('") joy in Persona two thematically was the creation of EP. They threw out the Carl Jung collective unconcious idea which was rather cool, but then the one person remembering making everything happen again was fascinating. I liked the idea of one of the heroes selfishly ruining everything because he lvoed to much. Played well into the very bittersweet EP ending which was very much in Megaten style. Well yeah. I'd say most of the persona games share certain themes. The entirety of Persona revolves around the phrase Cogito Ergo Sum. Which is what the shadow people are about. They represent people who no longer exist or live, because they don't believe in themselves. Maki Sonumura was the original shadow person. IS took it a step further with the Joker trick. (Or was that EP?) EP replaced shadow people with kegare. The Joker trick itself was more of a reference of the new style of "Japanese horror" movies that were gaining popularity during the late 90's. P3 took the shadow people concept to an extreme. To the point that the game comes off as nihilistic. That new shitty ass Persona anime misunderstood the concept of shadow people so they came up with some new & "improved" concept of the "shadows". BY "improved" what I mean is that the new shadows for the anime are devoid of any meaning or purpose. THe only purpose they serve is to be a big new baddie to kill. If I read you correctly, You did mention that you preferred EP right? If so than you're the practically the first person I've seen other than myself who preferred EP. While you're correct for the most part. I feel that the plot for the P2 games are still more complex than most. Persona games just go about their complexity in a completely different way. (Albeit the themes that Persona covers are less important, and more personal than a Vanilla SMT game.) I see the Persona 2 games. (Including the original.) More as time capsules of 90's contemporary Japan. Which would in effect, make them more mainstream. However the original Persona trilogy was still tolerable (For a mainstream title), because they at least resembled a SMT IF styled game. (SMT IF timeline is pretty much the light hearted Megaten games.) SMT IF games are still more "dark", and "heavy" than the current crop of Megaten titles. Well anyway, back to explaining why Persona was like a time capsule. Persona games have always been about the current generation of youth. As such, the games are filled to the brim with many Japanese sub/pop culture influences. Much of the cast from the original Persona trilogy were actually inspired from real Japanese celebrities. Including some foreigners such as Steven Seagall, and Japanese halfs like Ollivia Lufkin. Ollivia for that matter was used as the model for Lisa Silverman's "Bikini line" friend, and Lisa's background story (MUSES) is almost a direct rip off of Oliva's real life history. Innocent Sin seems to have the most in common with P3, because IS was the most blatant when it came to it's japanese pop culture references. Besides the Ollivia connection detailed up above. I also saw Japanese glam rock, Tetsuya Komoru/ Tsunku, celebrity gossip, sports talk, etc. references. Pointless trivia I'm sure, but all the the tiny tidbits of Japanese pop cultural trivia adds up to make quite an engaging experience that I haven't really seen much of before. Actually I have, but that prior experience was called Persona Be your True mind. (Although I originally played it as Persona Revelations....... Ne need to speak of it again.) The original Persona came off as less "teeny boppy" & "pop influenced" than IS, because the current "youth" of Japan wasn't as materialistic yet. The original Persona is set during the breaking point of our current Japan of today. (Before many of the current youth subcultures formed.) Reiji Kido was a Johnny's Jr. reference, and Yuka Ayase herself was a nod to Namie Amuro. Who herself, indirectly created the ko/gon girl sub culture. EP is more bearable than IS, because the main cast are adults. As such they don't act as childish. (The exception being Maya Amano, & possibly Ulala Serizawa.) While it's true that Persona 2 was the most melodramatic Megaten. (P3 now holds that crown.) I can't really hold anything against it, because that was the point of the games. The P2 games chronicled around a cast of fragmented personalities trying to become whole. ("You can change your way you live") The original Persona did as well to a certain extent, but it wasn't as prevalent, because the plot was mainly about Maki Sonumura trying to become "one" with herself. In some cases. The Persona 2 games come off as an attempt at political satire. What with the NWO references, & a middle eastern billionaire hiding out in Japan. (Who I believe was supposed to be a mockery of Osama Bin Laden & Saddam Hussein.) Which is quite brilliant, imo. Considering that Persona was making Osama jokes 2 or 3 years before 9/11 ever occurred. Part of the reason why I like Persona 2 has to do with the fact that I was living in Japan when the two P2 games originally released. I thought it was cool as hell seeing how accurately Persona 2 portrayed Japan. As opposed to P3. (Which basically models itself after generic anime stereotype fantasy Japan.) It wasn't until the release of Yakuza (Originally titled "Like a Dragon") That I finally saw another game that was able to capture the look & feel of Japan so well. Read this gigantic ass post where I go into more detail about Persona's plot. forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=702&start=23" target="_blank">http://killer7.6.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=702&start=23 (Although I can imagine that you could punch many wholes through my post. I do believe that it's a better account of persona's plot than most.) That's quite good. Far to few old school Megaten gamers around these days... Unfortunately most of us are starting to abandon megaten. Including myself. Still, dead to you? Are you really that bitter about the new games? Personally, I do truly hold out hope for a good one eventually. The gave me Nocturne, they could do it again... I'm of the firm belief that in the near future. The only "real" Megaten games will be Shin Megami Tensei itself. The problem here is that a new shin megaten only comes once every 6 to 10 years. Megaten died to me. The very moment when they announced Persona 4. The game is the true definition of a mature game. (I think one of the most telling moments is when Hijiri dies, and there's no tears shed, no dramatic "No I must kills you for this" from the main character. You just watch the event with silence and then once you've absorbed it's meaning you walk away. It's beautiful.) I know you'll love or at least dig Silver Case & "Flower, Sun, & Rain". I never even realized that almost the entire cast in Silver Case got killed off during the game. When people die in Suda's games. They usually just die. That's it. There is a rivalry between these two girls, but the only time you ever hear about it is when the other girl interrupts your conversation by killing the other girl that you were speaking to. The game never bothers to explain to you their "dirty laundry", because it's none of your business. Like Killer 7, Silver Case basically just shows events unfold without breaking into some long "epic" melodramatic speech. You'll might get a little turned off by FSR after seeing the intro. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUkmvPidyVc Rest assured. None of the preconceived notions that you may have had about FSR after viewing that intro ever come to fruition. I believe that inro was used to misdirect everybodie's attention toward the main three characters. Sumio Mondo (The man in the black suit.) Toriko Kusabi. (The girl singing in the video.) & Sundance Shot (The man in suit with a silver eye. Most people mistake his eye for an eye patch.) The funny thing about those three. Is that one of them doesn't exist. (Physically.) The other two. Well I can't even explain them. One man is a convicted terrorist. The other was a former head of a political party, that dissolved during the aftermath of the "Silver Case". He's also considered a terrorist. The point of FSR. Or as I call it, the "cover story". Is to discover who the airplane bomb terrorist is. I'll just say that the terrorist. Is the person whom you'd least expect. It was unexpected for me at least. (Hint: He makes an appearance in Killer 7.) The purpose of the airplane bombs are just as surprising. That's just the basics, unfortunately I'm still trying to understand FSR's plot so I won't bother to try to explain those two. I will say that it ultimately leads down to a rivalry between the Sundance Shot family & the Hachisuka family. The Hachisuka's all died during the Silver Case. (The remaining Hachisuka goes by a completely different surname) The intro gives you the impression that Sumio & Toriko might be lovers. An interesting touch about the intro is how Sumio & Toriko never look directly into each others eyes, or ever acknowledge each other. In the Intro you see Toriko glancing at Sumio, but Sumio never notices. All of this is actually foretelling to you the type of story that FSR is. Abstract surrealism. (Sumio never notices, because he can't see her.) In fact the couple times when he actually does see her. (During a dream.) Sumio just assumes that she is just a random girl whom he probably slept with in the past. Toriko on the other hand. Believes that Sumio is some kind of saviour who will break the time paradox of Lospass resort. I know it sounds cliche, but you just need to see the way the plot unfolds. I'm sure Killer 7 sounded just as cliche, before you actually played it. (I know I thought so. I wasn't expecting anything from the plot.) An interesting touch is that the antagonist chick from Moonlight Syndrome is actually one of the guests in FSR, but the game treats her as if she's just a random woman.

The game never hints at who she really is at all. Her name is Yayoi Hanayama. I've always listed her as an important character to the overall world of "Kill the Past" However I had no idea that she was actually that important of a cahracter. (I originally assumed that she was just an incarnation of a dead pop celebrity named Sayaka Baian.) Ah shit, here I am going way off topic. That's just how fascinated I am with the plots of Suda's games. I like how they all connect to each other. I also can't hold using HP Lovecraft against them. I love HP lovecrafts writing and at least Nyarlothep is something like HP lovecraft's Nyarlothep as opposed to most modern uses of HP Lovecraft which are doing a great disservice to it. You can say that again... especially The crawling Chaos's true form. I don't hold the Lovecraft & the Jungian influences against Megaten at all. In fact, I thank them for it. Megaten is what got me interested in them in the first place. Megaten has pretty much influenced almost every aspect of my life. I even learned how to dress better after seeing how well put together (& subtle) most Megaten outfits are. These kill the past games sound interesting, I do wish to try them. You've played at least one. Killer 7 I must admit I couldn't get into Fatal Frame. I only played the first one but I found it kinda average, and normal. Just my personal thought honestly. Silent Hill is my taste in horror. Dark, surreal, tormenting, unrelenting. I do indeed love them thematically. Back it up with beautiful artistic design and excellent music and they're great game. I never played a Fatal Frame in my life, but I will say this. History repeats itself, and it will again with Fatal Frame 4. I believe that every single Fatal Frame fan is going to hate Suda 51 for what he's about to do with Fatal Frame 4. Suda 51 originally caused a paradigm shift when he alienated the Twilight Syndrome audience when he made Moonlight Syndrome. Suda killed off the entire cast. In the most brutal way possible. What we have to consider is that the people that Suda killed off had personalities that were just as complex as the characterization found in the Persona games. So as you can imagine the characters who Suda killed off had legions of fans. You can imagine the disappointment that occurred once the Moonlight Syndrome ending came around. Here's the thread with some of the Moonlight Syndrome ending vids I made. forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=721&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15" target="_blank">http://killer7.6.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=721&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15 Moonlight Syndrome has a more straight forward story than most of Suda's work. (Save for No More Heroes>) What I love about Moonlight Syndrome is how twisted the Moonlight Syndrome "love story" is. We have people committing double homicides by self immolating themselves & the people around them. We see girls getting killed by rapists, only to be saved by a contract. The contract becomes void once she comes into contact with the guy who lust's for her. That guy only lust's for her, because she looks like his dead sister. His dead sister was actually his lover. Yes, I hope you can imagine how twisted & fucked up Moonlight Syndrome's plot was. Even though it's actually the most straight forward & mainstream plot that Suda has made. (Well NMH wins the new title for the most mainstream plot. Although NMH's plot isn't that mainstream at all. It's not good either, but uh I'll shut up for now.) The most beautiful thing about Moonlight Syndrome is that guy who originally consented to the Mithra contract gets shot dead during the Silver Case. At least you've beaten Nocturne :D Seriously though, you need to beat SMT 1/2. They're wonderful games, truly some of the best Megaten's produced. Gameplay, story, concept work, audio they're wonderful games. They've probably touched me the most profoundly out of any megaten game (Well, those and Nocturne. If you can't tell it's probably my favorite game ever). On the money thing SMT 1 and 2 are kinda brutal like that, but you get used to it. It's an unforgiving world afterall... You should really give it another shot. They're long, they're vicious, but man are they wonderful. I watched the endings for SMT & SMT II on youtube. Does that count? Nah I'm playing. Shit though if both you & I think that Megaten. (The original Shin Megami Tensei 1, II, & III.) are the most profound games of all time. Than that means that there's no other game out there that have surpassed it yet. That kinda sucks, because I'm aching to relive the experience I had when I first played Deus Ex & Nocturne. Suda games are as thought provoking, but I can say with all certainty that they lack the class & sophistication that Nocturne provided. I've always seen Suda's games as more of a trashy version of Megaten. (The TRUE megaten that you represent.) This forum represents that, as this is probably the most vulgar site that gamespy actually hosts. (This is the only g-spy site is required to have a warning label in it's front page.) Suda's games, especially Silver Case are the closest I've seen to a similar SMT, SMT II like setting. (Minus the demons. Although I have seen a pic of a demon trying to eat Sumio's head off in SC 25 Ward. I think that part was meant to be surreal.) I really would like to play more Suda, he sounds excellent. (And if Killer 7 is any indication of his other games I'd be happy) If you like K7 than you'll obviously like the Silver Case series, because K7 is basically a watered down rip off of Silver Case. SC's plot takes place entirely within Japan. The game is a collection of stories. Many of them don't relate & some of them do. Killer 7 would've been similar had K7 not been restricted to just the political plot. FSR is just as good, it's not as dark as SC, but I think you'll might dig it. Since Killer 7 isn't as dark as SC either. And Megaten is a wonderful thing. I've played so much in my day and the grea-*test*-('") tragedy is that there is not more. WORD! I used to post a long time ago, before the great brain drain. I think left with it. If I may be elitist again for a second.... Back in the old days, on the Summoner Board (The board before Haven existed) there was a small group of us who talked about Megaten (Famous people like Re-Miel, Tom/Shivalva, Masakado. I was the newbie back then, I didn't have the wealth of knowledge I had now.) and it was small and cool and we were all very knowledgeable, though I will admit elitist at times. But as the fanbase expanded someone opened Megaten Haven and people moved there. It was good at first but over time it became a haven for drama, immaturity, and lack good discussion on Megaten so most of the old people packed and left. I've actually been a lurker this entir

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