Aww. So I have to HALF-hang from a tree? Or hang from HALF a tree?

I'm half hung. Does that count for anything?

Oh and I also like overly violent stuff. Especially if it involves dying babies/kittens. And I'm hung like a tree. Minus the itches and the insects. But I do have a great woody.

Well this is going to be another long post from I.... Killer 7 isn't actually criticsizing the United States, it's only using the USA as an example. Since THEY ARE the most reknowned "democracy" in the world. Notice how the plot has more to do with Japan than it does the United States. The United States being controlled by a Shadow Government is a common conspiracy theory, most belive that it's actually the Zionists who make all the decisions. K7 is just saying that democracy is a manufactured lie. Instilled to the masses through propaganda. (Propaganda in the form of comic books,tv shows,pop songs, any other entertainment that's widely available to the masses.) The world has never had a true democracy. (A country that is governed by the people.) Just like how the world has never had a true communist state. it had so many things to question,like what is really america?,what exactly is our government doing?. ...and why are we here; on an internet, discussing such an obscure game? was it created, just to be confusing. is the game representational of 'life as a paradox'?. for example in the game, "Suda-FiveONE" makes us play a game (the 'love' scene). So in literal terms... we are sitting down with a joypad in our hands - playing a game - playing a game. to bring the point back to 'life in general' - we play a game (killer7) and discuss it on a forum in ONE continuous loop. in other words its depicts our lives as pointless and to be EVEN more specific. it depicts THIS message as pointless. i hope my words do not make sense for it is only robot ears that should understand. Now this comment is what I call post modern. It gets you thinking. You're not really sure if the comment above was a sarcastic insult or not. Much like K7 which at times comes off as complete satire. (Especially when compared to MGS.) Killer 7 was just one continous limbo of randomness that was weird, for the sake of being weird. Although I can't say that I agree with your overall message. Correct me if I'm wrong,but I don't view K7 as meaningless. I feel that's disrespectful,because the subliminal & polictical messages/metaphors scattered through out Killer 7 make a liltle too much sense IMO. Especially if you played through FSR or Silver Case, you get the idea that yes Suda does intentionally create mind fucks, but there is often a relevant message hidden somewhere. Yes it is just a game, but unlike most games Suda51 seems to either be well read or profoundly knowledgeable about the content that he wishes to write about. Suda 51 games are comparable to the Megaten games. (They are the abstract art of gaming. Megaten specializes in philosophy, & the occult. Most Suda51 games are usually a cynical critque on current human relations) What the 3 games (FSR,Silver,K7) share in common is the theme "Kill the Past". The events that led up to the "Kill the past" theme originated in Moonlight Syndrome. (The "strange shot of a moon that blinks at you" is a direct reference to the Moonlight Syndrome. Basically the moon is saying that it has begun once again. It's time to "Kill the Past" The message sometimes varies for Silver Cae 25 ward the theme is "Kill the Life") Silver Case Kill the Past Sumio confronts his past (Moonlight Syndrome the game) in The Silver Case. Sumio & his child hood friends enact their revenge on a ceo. (The Ceo used his own daughter as a scapegoat. His daughter was raped & killed by an angry mob of people known as the "Parade".) Sumio destroys the entire city. (His childhood friends both committed suicide. One hung himself after blowing up an Ireguya Yuki mansion & everybody inside it. Sumio's other friend suicide bombed himself while jumping through a tower, killing everybody inside.) Sumio is then relieved of duty & kicked out of the Felonious Ward 24 police. The 2nd division is disbanded after that,because Tetsuguro Kusabi was the only other member of the 2nd division Tetsuguro Kusabi corrects the past in The Silver Case. Kusabi never actually aprehended the criminal who committed the "Silver Case" the true culprit behind the murders died during a shoot out at a political meeting high up in a tv tower. The assassin in question was hired by the FSO political right wing faction that was led by Sundance. Flower, Sun, & Rain Kill the Past Refers to both Tokio Morishima & Sumio Mondo. Tokio Morishima escaped to Lospass resort soon after he was handed the notebook containing all the classified information about the "Silver Case" Sumio Mondo is taught the truth about Lospass from Morishima. (Sumio protected Tokio Morishima during one of the cases in The Silver Case.) Sumio meets up with Sundance the former leader of the FSO political party. Well I don't all the minour details, but I'll just say that Sumio had to forget the past in order to relive in the present. Sumio & Sundance are both seeds of Camui Uehara, the enigma who was supposedly responsible for the "Silver incident". Killer 7 Kill the Past is the exact opposite of Flower, Sun, & Rain. Whereas FSR slowly descends into madness, Killer 7 stays chaotic through out the whole game. Unlike Sumio Mondo who needed to forget the past, Garcian had to reclaim his past as a cold blooded Killer in order to relive his life. What is Killer 7 IMO Killer 7 was basically a critique on Japan. The message is plain & clear. Killer 7 is saying that Japan needs to amend Article 9 of the so called peace constitution. Because if they don't Japan will be doomed to meet the same fate they did in Killer 7. http://www.examiner.com/a-455552~Normalize_relations_with_Japan.html Allow moi to put it in persective, Japan is a country without an official army. They only have self defense troops. If a country such as China or North Korea were to launch nuclear pulsars at Japan. (As was shown in Killer 7.) Japan's only hope for defense is within the hope that the United States will not back off on it's promise/agreement during the peace constitution. If such an event ever did occur, would the United States feel that it within their best interest to comply with an agreement that they made over 30 yrs. ago? http://yellowpeep.blogspot.com/2006/12/you-get-all-wrong-cnn.html The above blog post goes into further detail. Alter ego was about propaganda, and it's easily spread across the world under the guise as entertainment. Cloudman was about presentation, & how easy it is to fool the masses into believing you. All you need is the right marketting strategy & presentation. Hence First Life, a company that only ran commercials. Encounter dind't really have much to do with the story,but it did show the grimy truth that even Government officials take part in shady dealings of the underworld that are actually sanctioned by the government. (Like saling women's organs. In real life "Encounter" most likely refers to government agents selling crack to minorities in poor neighborhoods.) Sunset,Smile & Lion are all direct scenarios that lead up to the climax. (WW IIII or Japan being economicly destabilized.) The first target is just a prelude & it's only there to introduce you to the game. The Yakumo was a modified cabinet policy which was created in order to bring (political) power back to the right wing. The right wing if given complete control will bring power back to the Japanese military forces. The entirety of Killer 7 has you (Garcian Smith) scouring the globe in search for the Yakumo. This led him from Japan to Texas. After Texas the United States obtained the Yakumo, but it was then secured in the hands of Matsuken. A member of the Japanese United Nations party. Matsuken's "Secret Japanese Members" refers to the secret Korean nationalists who infiltrate Japan as Korean Zainichi's. The New York Times Journalist, Norimitsu Onishi is one such individual. http://www.occidentalism.org/?p=442#comments ( I was going to post a link to a NYTimes article that exposes Onishi as the fraud that he is,but it seems to have been retracted. So y'all have to settle for a blog post.) He usually spends his time spreading negative anti Japan propaganda. He can get away with it,because his name is Japanese. Although his bloodline is not. He's Korean. This is the same idea that was used for Killer 7. Garcian Smith was a killer hired by the Japanese government. (Why they chose a 13 yr' old is anyones guess.) On the outside he appears American, but he is actually a tool for the Japanese government. Much like Mr. Onishi, who appears to be Japanese, but in reality he is actually a tool of the far leftist Korean government. Linda Vermilion her self could possibly be another one of those tools for the Japanese government. When Toru Fukushima says that he received a call from the government, and Harman responds "To design & devise" What they are referring to is that Fukushima is being invited to be one of the individuals who get to decide what is reality & truth, & what is false & fiction. Much of what we know as truth was only decided by the victors who wrote the history books. Or in Metal Gear Solid terms, Fukushima is being invited to become one of the ten wisemen of the Patriots or La Lu Le Li Lo. (Whatever the hell they're called.) Unlike China, Japan is not part of the "official" NWO. Japan has their own NWO & this is the organization that Harman & Fukushima are referring to.

Who ordered the hit on the Killer 7 For some reason everybody seems to think it was Kun Lan who directly ordered Garcian to kill the Killer 7. It was actually the Japanese government that wanted them dead. IMO Kun Lan is an apparition of a man who exists somewhere in the world but the man that you see in front of you is just a voice. A voice in your head that's been given an appearance that you visualize when you hear the voices. It's been said that individuals who are proficent enough in the occult can & will invade the minds of others by projecting their image to them. I feel that Kun Lan is one such individual. The "God" Harman Smith himself is also just a voice in your head that materializes into a human identity in order for you to interact with it. In the begining of the topic I said that I had a similar "Harman's Room" like sanctuary. For moi "Harman's room" was a park located directly in the middle of two apartment complexes. In real life I actually did use this park a couple of times to rethink my situation. So it makes sense that the mental sanctuary that I once had would take the shape of the Park located in between two complexes. For Garcian, he felt most at home near a figure named Harman Smith. So his sanctuary took the form of Harman's Room. Killer 7 deals with mentally disturbed individuals. If you read the book Fight Club, you might see several similarities with K7. In the sense that much of what you see & feel is actualy surreal & the reality that you're living is a lie. (Think of Travis from Fight Club. Think back to when he all of a sudden disappears during the end. Travis in reality was just a repressed sub concious of the main character that has been given life as it's own entity.) What makes you think that you know so much? I deduced what I know from playing the game & rereading & hearing all the conversations laced through out the game. When you combine what you learn from the game with info that's been interpreted in Hand in Killer 7 it becomes clear that the main conflict of Killer 7 was a political one. A political conflict that originated once Japan lost the war. They now have to rely on the military might of the United States. In order to protect theirselves from a foreign invasion. The reason why the imagery & such seems so random is because you are seeing the game through the eyes of a man who is the property of the United States governement. (He was brainwashed by the United States government. If you listen to the FBI tapes closely, even Hoburn will make a comment about the United States fabricating Garcian's identity. We never learn what Garcian Smith/Emir Parkreiner's name truly is,because his identity has been erased by the government.) Although Garcian was originally a tool of the Japanese, when he met the Young Harman he became the tool of the United States. Young Harman is either a state of mind or an actual individual who exist,but is a cointelpro agent. Garcian finally breaks free of his control from the government after he revisits Union Hotel the second time. (Exactly what Linda Vermilion told Garican to do.) Returning to the scen of the crime opened up all his repressed memories to the point where he couldn't lie to himself anymore. There's a lot meat to Killer 7 that remains hidden unless you take the time to decode what the actual dialogue in K7 is actually saying. IMO video games would be more respected as a true literary device if more videogames actually had stories that had as many complexities & layers as K7. To claim that K7 is just created for the sake of being confusing is insulting IMO. Even though the official statement from Suda 51 is that the events in K7 are completly unrelated with what's going on in the real world. (I believe that's just being said to protect themselves from lawsuits. In case some kids decide to committ some copy cat murders.) It's plainly obvious to me that Suda51 did actually used the ongoing political quagmire in asia & laced them throughout the game as metaphors & twisted parables about killers. The end result is an incoherant mess that would only make sense to individuals who are already aware with the current political struggle or are well read in geo politics. (Killer 7 even has a song called Geo politics.) I'm not even trying to connect the dots here. As soon as I saw Suda 51 say that the Nuclear missles were launched by the Eastern threat & not the United States, that's when the rest of the game came together for me. What was once a series of scribbles became an obvious straight linear line after he uttered the words "Eastern Threat" It gave me the clue I needed to understand what the characters in K7 were actually talking about. K7 is basically talking about the same conflict that's has been expressed in Ghost in the Shell SAC 2. Except SAC 2 was mostly about internal political conflicts such as the population decline & the current influx of illeagal immigrants. K7 was more about the control of knowledge & the power to manipulate that knowledge to spread it to the masses. Japan (Matsuken) uncovered a top confidential secret about the United States & he wished to use this knowledge as his trump card to appeal to the United Nations military forces. Matsuken saught this as revenge against the United States for failing to keep a "promise" (Article 9 -Failure to unleash the "fireworks in time. Japann would've been destroyed in during Sunset if it weren't for Matsuken's "secret japanese members" manipulating the vote.) that was made over 30 yrs. ago.

What you just said is ongoing proof as to why I enjoy K7 so much. I always end up learning more. From your views, from others. K7 as a whole is way too much information for one person to decypher. Hence the need for an outlet like this. I, however do not agree with the post made by kakybac. When I first played the game, and fought through Alter Ego, I was well aware that the ending signified you (the player) playing out a game. Playing a game, about playing a game (kinda like Dot Hack, but without all the lame JRPG shit IMO). I saw that as a very important theme. Its a very quick and easy way to let the player know that this world (K7) is full of paradoxs. Its one of those moments where you can connect at least one dot! But to insult the game without understanding the political subject matter is very unfair. The political themes may not reflect actual events going on today, but they sure as hell were influenced by them. This and speculation. What would really happen if (as in Top's example) a terrorist threat bombed, invaded, whatever, Japan? I haven't really fleshed out my opinions here, but my point still stands, the more you expose yourself to K7's mythos, the more interested you become. And it seems like Topdrunkee is giving more and more credit to K7 after his posts in this topic!

Actually I'm giving kakybac the benefit of the doubt, since I don't really understand what he was trying to say anyway. (That's the point, his post is post modern you're not suppose to understand what he said. People who can't understand will look like idiots. Those who think they understand will come off as pretentious idiots.) IMO he makes more logical sense than most people when explaining the purpose of Killer 7. I think Kakybac is saying that K7 was meant to confuse as pure satire. The punch line being all the suckaz who believe they understand what's going on in K7. The joke being, that there is no "deep" or hidden meaning in Killer 7. K7 was meant to be a game that satirizes videogames & videogamers in general. It's pretty much the same idea that was used for the Earthbound/Mother series. (The most post modern series of games ever conceived.) The only beef I have with that asessment is that the political plot in Killer 7 makes far too much sense for the entire game to have just been one elaborate sarcastic joke. (BTW I still don't understand what Earthbound was about. God that game was weird.) What you just said is ongoing proof as to why I enjoy K7 so much. I always end up learning more. From your views, from others. K7 as a whole is way too much information for one person to decypher. That's true, which is why I wish I had more writers. I can only write about the polictical arc of Killer 7. I'm not as knowledgeable when it comes to Psychology, the most that I can do with that is reference my own expierinces & movies such as Donnie Darko,Fight Club,Clockwork Orange,Mullholand Drive (Mullholand Drive is actually a name of a location in the Silver Case. It's where you first hear about Hotlel FSR.) etc. When I first played the game, and fought through Alter Ego, I was well aware that the ending signified you (the player) playing out a game. Playing a game, about playing a game (kinda like Dot Hack, but without all the lame JRPG shit IMO). I saw that as a very important theme. Its a very quick and easy way to let the player know that this world (K7) is full of paradoxs. Its one of those moments where you can connect at least one dot! That's a stand alone theme & it only applies to Alter ego, the online game. (Most folks get the wrong idea, & assume that the whole game was meant to be a fake simulation like MGS2.) The entire game of Killer 7 is ocurring in real time, but most individuals seem to get thrown off by misinformation. (Such as the Alter ego ending.) This also coincides with Alter ego's theme of propaganda. Killer 7 likes to throw in red herrings http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring to lead it's audience astray. That's why you must follow the straight line that you will visualize once you grasp the full nature of the political plot of K7. The political themes may not reflect actual events going on today, but they sure as hell were influenced by them. Wrong, everything political that's being said in Killer 7 ACTUALLY IS HAPPENING TODAY. Read the links that I posted thorougly. http://www.lewrockwell.com/rogers/rogers206.html Make yourself acquainted with this page as it provides you with the basic knowledge needed in order to fully comprehend the set up that Japan is in. (Killer 7 uses the same exact set up, but it is only labeled as "Eastern Threat". ) http://www.examiner.com/a-455552~Normalize_relations_with_Japan.html This page is talking about the "promise" Garcian & Mills were discussing about during Sunset 2. In Killer 7 Japan never bothered to amend Article 9. In the page that I linked to Japan actualy is trying to amend article 9 in order to prepare for an eventual nuclear strike by North Korea. http://yellowpeep.blogspot.com/2006/12/you-get-all-wrong-cnn.html Read yellowpeeps entire blog. Every single post he wrote is actually relevant to the world of Killer 7. Which is quite comical since I bet this guy has never even heard of the game. (That's just further proof that Suda actually did use political conflicts that are occurring in the world today & laced them in the game as a metaphor. Sadly the only metaphor most individuals seem to pick up on is the War on Terorism reference during the anime prolouge of Sunset.) http://www.occidentalism.org/ While this blog is mostly about Korea. Much of the content in question directly relates to the education method that is being taught in Coburn Elementary. The page also contributes more knowledge to the "Eastern threat". http://yellowpeep.blogspot.com/2006/07/korean-cult-leaders-here-comes-again.html#links http://yellowpeep.blogspot.com/2006/11/uyoku-obscure-cult-2.html#links http://www.occidentalism.org/?p=442#comments The three above links directly relate with Matsuken's "secret Japanese members" The American equivalent would be that of a Russian/Arab/Asian spies masquerading as American citizens. Yes the individuals being discussed in the links actually do influence the vote in Japan considerably. Which is exactly the same scenario that Garcian predicted during his last meeting with Mills. http://killer7.3dactionplanet.gamespy.com/story.htm Read K7 SINS own story page to further establish the link between Killer 7 & real world politics. This excerpt from Hand in Killer 7 The International Ethics Committee The International Ethics Committee is a peace-keeping organization that mediates in international conflict. The IEC intends to make the United States attack Japan. The International Ethics Committee plan to colonize Japan with Russian and Asian populations. They have already occupied Hokkaido and Kyushu; now, they are arguing over concession of Honshu (Japan's mainland) with the United States. In Singapore, the negotiations regarding the division of Japan continue. in particular is most crucial to understanding the gravity of the situation that Japan is in. Record what you learn from these pages & play Killer 7 again. You'll be astonished when you finally see how remarkably similar the real life scenario is with the fictionalized scenario of K7. Like I said when Suda 51 claimed the events in K7 are completly unrelated with what's going on in the real world. He was just saying that, but not actually being sincere about it. It's the same as Hideo Kojima claiming that this is his last MGS game. If you're familiar with the political background that Suda 51 pulled his story from it's easy to see that the entire game is just a metaphor for a political scenario that's likely to happen if Japan doesn't remilitarize. IMO the only reason Suda 51 said that the events in K7 are completly unrelated with what's going on in the real world, is because he was just taking an extra precaution. So a lawyer won't be able to quote him or his game Killer 7 should a potential law suit arise. (From a copy cat murder. An individual who copies acts that they have seen from movies or games.) It's a standard procdeure in the government. Commit lilttle white lies to create a shield of defence before shit hits the fan. A note about the dialogue in Killer 7. Most of the characters are actually speaking like politicians. They mostly use code words, & metaphors One code phrase that I often see being repeated in the links that I posted in this thread is "historical amnesia" this refers to individuals who often recite histrocial fabrications as the absolute truth. When in reality the history that they recite is nothing more than a politically motivated lie.

This and speculation. What would really happen if (as in Top's example) a terrorist threat bombed, invaded, whatever, Japan? Who said anything about terrorists? Japan is being attacked by a collection of foreign soveriegn nations (China,Korea, & possibly Russia.) It was not an act of terroism. It was an act of WAR. Two completely different beasts all together. Terrorists are criminals. Aggressions of war show you that it is the will & mandate of the foreign nation's government that wants your country dead. In other words the nukes being fired at Japan was a legalized attack from an alliance of countries situated in Asia. This is exactly what the Killer 7 comic got wrong. They assumed that it was an attack by a band of rouge terrorists. (Terrorists wouldn't be able to afford that many earth shattering nukes not even in the black market. They would have to use air planes instead.) The comic book says that the Rising Wind (Yakumo) was formed of 7 survivors of Iwo Jima. That's right the comic book wants us to believe that the leading political party in Japan was actually composed by ex imperial army grunts. In other words indivduals who only know how to fire a gun,rape & kill. I don't know about y'all but the game gave moi the impression that the Yakumo were more the conniving type. Somewhat of an organized mob outfit in the form of a political party. In the comic the Yakumo decide to terrorize Japan. (But why? The Yakumo are pro Japanese. Why would they destabilize their own country. This is why the plot for the comic book is horrible IMO. There's so many contridictions to the main plot that it is devoid of all the political tension that was present in the game.) People fail to see the intended irony of the political conflict of Killer 7. The whole mess could've easily been avoided had either the U.S.A. complied with Article 9 or had Japan undertook specific precautions to prevent such an event to occur in the first place. Neither Japan or the U.S.A. lived up to expectations so they were both to blame. Which why we no matter what you choose at the end of the game. Someone gets fucked upped. It didn't matter if it was the U.S. or Japan, as long as one of the countries faced retribution for failure to comply with the current state of geo politics. the more you expose yourself to K7's mythos, the more interested you become. And it seems like Topdrunkee is giving more and more credit to K7 after his posts in this topic! I'm not really sure what you're implying by that. If there's one thing that I always repeat regarding Killer 7. Is that I love how advanced the level of politics actually are in K7. (I'm sure that I've said that at least over 100 times in this forum.) My posts & the website itself prove how politically relavent K7 is. People can say what ever negative trash they want about Killer 7, but if anybody dares to say or imply that Killer 7 is devoid of meaning, an actual coherant plot, or theme than I'll tell you straight up... Damn right I'm going to stick up for Killer 7. Like Emir said the story is off the hook. The world of gaming needs more intellectual mind fucks. The reason I built a K7 website in the first place was because I was impressed that a video game could actually contain a complex political plot without resorting to mindless rhetoric. (The entire MGS series.) Unfortunately judging by the cult nature of this website It seems that Chain Chomp was right on the money with his assertion Chain Chomp Image Constraint Token Registered: Jun 2005 Location: Winnipeg, Canada. Posts: 1412 It's not that I'm against politics in video games. Killer7 had one of the best video game storylines that involved global politics ever. But Killer7's delivery of politics works because a) unlike Metal Gear, it doesn't insult the player, and b) it shows more than one side of the story. Metal Gear on the other hand, shoved all of Kojima's beliefs down the throat of players: his fear of a nuclear holocaust, the consequences of a free market, environmental issues, government conspiracies, etc, and it was so obvious it was downright condescending. Killer7 did the one thing that most "political" video games don't do: it makes the player think, and think about it a lot. Killer7 also didn't take sides, but rather, illustrated what happens at the micro level as the "sides" attempt to thwart one another. Chain Chomp Image Constraint Token Registered: Jun 2005 Location: Winnipeg, Canada. Posts: 1412 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by n64nut You don't like it, that is fine but you are definately in the minority on the opinion that he is "overblown and pretentious -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That's because most gamers are media and politically illiterate. Gamers aren't known for their erudition. As a result, most gamers can't criticize Kojima's work, because they lack the ability to do so. After two years this website still has a rather small following despite the fact that it's the only real K7 fansite around. (Name me one other english website that actually has info about Silver Case & FSR, both titles are relavent to Killer 7. -Kill the Past- I've seen several Japanese blogs who have done so, & I even referenced them in the past.) Hell even the K7 fanlisting has more prestige than K7 Sin. The fanlisting is actually linked on Wikipedia. Whereas K7 SIN is deemed as an irrelavent unreliable source, simply because it does not coincide with what the majority of the English K7 fanbase thinks. I don't want to sound arrogant,but that's mainly because most English speaking K7 fans have no idea what is going on at all with the plot of K7. I was hoping that K7 SIN could recitify that... but I digress. Video games & politics really don't mix. (Real politics, not rhetoric.) IMO the only way to make a political game that could actually be understood by the masses is by spouting left wing rhetoric such as IraQ is EVIL!!!!, or Georg DuB-YA BuSh iS ThE AnTi ChRiST, DeViL!!! Unfortunately those statements lack complexity & thought. It's the same as labeling Killer 7 as the battle between good & evil. Even so, such simplistic rationale is still rife with contridictions. Which one is the good guy? Harman or Kun Lan? If Harman Smith is the good guy why is he called the "God Killer"? & why is Harman so grimy & emotionless? Kun Lan himself doesn't seem like such a bad guy. He's very charming & witty & he's also called the "God Hand". You don't see such contridictions with the political ark of K7. (Other than several misnomers such as the Ministry of Education, & mistaking Washington State for Washington D.C.) Well this is my last post for awhile. I need to finally update the Silver Case website, and finally get the article up for the Killer 7 relationship chart.

Ready for nuke-armed alliance with Taiwan
This should probably be placed in the politics section, but since it has so much to do with the theoretical scenario proposed in Killer 7, I'm posting it here instead. http://yellowpeep.blogspot.com/2007/02/ready-for-nuke-armed-ally-with-taiwan.html Apparently the six-nation pact on dismantling North Korea's nuclear program sounded nonsense to Japanese people. But what made them more scared was the undependable attitude of US, giving up confrontation with North Korea. "Another almost-abondoned nation shouldn't be overlooked," say a number of right-wingers in the message boards, namely, they now think about the alliance with Taiwan. Their points are as follows: 1) US has been retracting their troops to the second defense line (see up figure), that connects Phillipine, Guam, and Hawaii. They let enemy have nukes while don't let allies do the same thing. 2) Korean peninsula is unfortunately controlled by communists and will also be. 3) Taiwanese old people who remember Japanese rule are thinking favorably of Japan. If some action should be taken, it's now, or they'll die. 4) Stronger coordination with Australia and India is essential. Letting US fight a proxy war against China in Middle East, Japan can defend chokepoints such as canals together with Australia. 5) Develop nukes and share them with Taiwan. Then tentative peace should be protected. Lol! I can't stop laughing at this, because it's so over the top, but true at the same time. It turns out that the scenario that Killer 7 predicted is happening sooner than we all thought. Bush has already forsaken Japan & has made some amiccable ties with North Korea. http://freekorea.us/?p=6480 In other words the only thing that needs to happen in order to complete the Killer 7 scenario is for China or Korea to inact a premptive nuclear strike at Japan, & for the United States to turn a blind eye (Which they have already done, by making amends with their sworn enemy. *Communists*) when ever Japan gets blown up by nukes. Nothing will happen to China or Korea, because as Travis Bell said "Nobody cares about Japan." (The reason why nobody cares about Japan is because of all the propaganda that has been spread around the world that the Japanese are still imperalists facists. Which is a sad shame since Japan is about as mellow as you can get.) We all already knew about how ignorant Bush jr. is or is perceived to be. (Since I always gave him the beneifit of the doubt.) But damn I didn't think he was that stupid. How will this un patriotic action possibly gain support from his own party? For real though what does Bush jr. gain from this? I thought he was an arrogant gun toting right winger not a bleeding liberal, hah hah. Not only that with this simple gesture the United States has finally lost the full fledged support of Japan. (One of the only countries in the world who actually sided with the U.S.A no matter what the occasion.) I can easily see Japan going rogue (YAKUMO) now that they have been politically abandoned/back stabbed like this, mwa hah hah. (I can't contain my laughter at how fast the K7 scenario is unfolding. It's both sad,ironic & comical.) All who had conspired to betray us (South Korea and China) and to murder us (North Korea) have been rewarded. Both Koreas will continue to receive U.S. taxpayer largesse for their duplicity and mendacity. Both have moved a step closer toward extinction — the slow, repressive extinction in the North, and the lackadaisical surrender of freedom, independence, and prosperity in the South. But for now, both are content to decide how they will spend your money. Note: "Us" refers to Japan. Lol! This is exactly what Fukushima was talking about when he said that Japan can not compete in global politics. Look at how Japan is getting treated like some unwanted stepchild while Japan's parent guardian (U.S.A.) tries to amend their relationship with a country that doesn't even respect them in the first place (North Korea) Hopefully unlike Killer 7, a politician will rise who will conduct a fail safe plan (Such as the Taiwan nuclear alliance) to prevent the ecconomy & infrastructure of Japan from being obliterated. If not,Japan's prosperity in the East is over & the Japanese islands will be overrun by Russia (Who already have stolen two of japan's Islands) & any other neighboring country who's quick enough to grab a piece of the pie. (Formerly known as Japan.) It's kina of hilarious, because even in the K7 SIN site, I've actually wrote that only Taiwan could be a possible ally for the country of Japan. This quote from the comments section is quite eerie, but speaks the cold hard truth... usinkorea said, February 16, 2007 @ 4:50 am I don’t want NK to get its hands on the millions that are frozen. Next, I don’t think a showdown with Iran will happen. We have Bush being fought now by members of his own party. Heads have rolled since the last election, the Dems smell blood, and so do the Reps who are jumping ship. Bush is in the lame duck part of his tenure - which could either give him freedom of action or hem him in, depending on which path he decides to take, and I would bet it will be the hem in result. And after the 2008 election, it is now unlikely anything serious will be done with Iran or North Korea. You can guage the flow of things right now by all these resolutions condemning the troop surge. You have states crawling out of the woodwork to draft resolutions condemning the war and the surge. You have Obama and others saying they will pull troops out if elected. You have people of influence in the media and the media’s eye calling for funds to be cut to force a withdrawal time table. We aren’t going to go into Iran in this environment. The future of the US global position in a significant way sinks or swims with Iraq. I thought that going in, but I sense it even more now that the foundations for being sucessful in Iraq have been shattered pretty much. If Iraq can be salvaged from the direction it is heading (and by this I mean the idea of Iraq in American thought and so on too) — if a stable, fair democracy takes off and Iraq gets the chance to use its oil wealth to speedily build up its economy - the US will be in a significantly better position than it was in pre-Iraq War II. Iraq’s sucess can be a beacon to the peoples of other nations, but just having a friendly, stable, rich Iraq in that region will be a big help. If we pull out of Iraq before the above is accomplished, we will retreat into an isolationism that isn’t really of choice. If we fail, it will be due to lack of fortitude on the part of American society as a whole, and we will then likely forfit our standing to the will of our allies in Western Europe. (and the likes of South Korea). What I mean is - Euro-think will be the coin of choice in our own foreign policy thought. France will be the litmus -*test*-('") of whether we do something (that’s nobel) or not do something (that’s too John Waynish). It might end up looking something like most of the 1990s, but it will be worse than that. In the 1990s, we held leadership at arm’s length more out of Cold War fatigue than anyting else. One side of the debate dropped out, and the Euro-think was left in a stronger position (oddly enough after losing in the Cold War internal dialog in Western society). Now, we are moving to tuck our tail and accept what others say of us after a major, major global push. We have taken on global terrorism and took the fight to two nations who were our enemies. And it now looks like we did not have the stomach for it. Many in the world —- including among our allies —- will take note and see a chance of advantage. Pulling out of Somolia (which I agreed with) showed us to be weak willed. Bosnia and Kosovo did nothing to change that view point. It even gave it a little support. If we pull out of Iraq as a failure, it will be even more a sign to certain groups and nations that we are a paper tiger, because what will force us out of Iraq will be a significant lack of faith among the American population. And this will spell trouble for the world as a whole. I am not saying the US is a savior or anything. I am saying that there will be little to no leadership with the US backing out. France has pretended it wants to lead since the days of DeGualle, but Bosnia and Kosovo proved beyond a shadow of doubt that the rich Western European nations will not lead without the US providing the bulk of the muscle and cash for their lead. And without leadership from the Western democracies, and nations that have followed their path, like Japan and South Korea, the future will belong to the Irans in some significant ways. Pulling out of Iraq and it failing with be the final chapter of the Cold War. It will be the chapter that defines the aftermath of it. The US will have shown great courage and fortitude in out lasting the Soviets, but it will have shown it could not sucessfully navigate the momentum of victory. And it will be the same for what we might call The Western Way - the democracies. And the failure to use the momentum of victory for positive gains (both for the US and the democracies) will stem in large measure to internal dynamics of the democracies themselves. If there ever were a Killer 7 TWO, & it if it were still political. I could easily imagine an alternate reality scenario where Japan actually does try to ally with Taiwan & arm them with nukes. Instead of foolishly relying on the security treaty from over 30 yrs. ago like they did in the first K7 game. Note: I'm not for or against against Communism. I'm just saying the communists are the United States sworn enemy. So it's some what anti climatic that the U.S. is finally trying to relieve pressure from their professed enemies yet screw over their professed allies "Japan" & "Taiwan".

I always thought it was funny how throughout the last half century the U.S. government was completely paranoid of communism, trying to brainwash the people into believing it was the grea-*test*-('") threat in the world. Times have certainly changed, it's hard to imagine an American company doing business with the Soviet Union back then, yet that seems to be a standard for every company with China. I'm not an expert on economics, but when you look at countries like China and India, I have to wonder what might come of giving all our jobs to countries we have pretty unstable relationships with. And I'm not even going to get started on the rapidly increasing influence of China in South America, other than how bizarre it is to see the same country that was terrified of the thought of communism spreading half a world away, not giving a damn that that's exactly what's happening in their own backyard. Politics is pretty fucked up, the countries are like people constantly backstabbing and shaking hands with each other, it makes you wonder how it is they always convince us to die for their wars between each other when they'll just be friends again in a couple decades. It's like in 1984 when there are three world powers, and the main one in the story is in a war with one against the other, but a short time later they're allied with their former enemy against their former ally. I had no idea Japan appeared to be that fucked. It's always seemed like a country that's on the rise with it's technological advances. But relying on a truce made so long ago does seem pretty short-sighted considering how the times have changed, and you really have to wonder if the U.S. would really step in to protect Japan at the risk of losing face with China or North Korea. Edit: Found an interesting story here http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070224/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/japan_spies_and_war_crimes

Whoa that link you posted sounded so much like the whole Yakumo ordeal in K7. (I could be wrong I only read the first 2 paragraphs.) Yet that is another example of United States siding with it's enemies once again. (It's also been said that the U.S.A. let some war criminals off the hook as long as Japan provided the U.S.A. with the research that they conducted during Unit 731.) It wouldn't be too surprising to moi. Some agents for the government were or are former criminals/killers. It's mainly for two reasons 1. These killers have the credentials nescessary in order to complete a mission with little to no emotional bias or remorse. 2. If these agents ever get caught or killed in the line of duty, nobody will care. The CIA will just pretend that they had no involvement with the killer in question. Note:Even Young Harman (The man who claims to be an agent of the government.) himself talks about how he first met Emir, & took him under his wing right after Emir committed the Union Hotel murders. Since Emir's prodigical like skills in assassination would be pretty useful for "information warfare" regarding the United States. ---- Here's an example of how in general nobody gives a fuck about Japan. Or whatever it was that Travis Bell said during Sunset part 2. All I remember was that I was like "Hellz Yeah!" when I was reading Travis Bell's political commentary. (Heh I'm agreeing with the political opinion of some metrosexual zombie ghost.) http://www.japantoday.com/jp/news/399870 http://www.japantoday.com/jp/news/399785 Just look at all those inane snide comments trying to insult Japan, when these posters don't even realize that Japan has a legit reason for concern. In a nuclear stand-off Japan seemed to think that arguing about undeclared crabs and sea urchins was more important. Mr. Hill is being super kind by not calling a spade a spade. I'm like WTF? This guy doesn't know what he's talking about. It's actually Korea who is making a big deal out of those damn rocks, but as usual Japan gets blamed for everything in Asia regardless if they had anything to do with it or not. http://ampontan.wordpress.com/2007/01/02/becoming-that-which-you-hate/#more-5 While North Korea will agree to stop pestering with the U.S. so long as the U.S. provides them with provisions,etc. That does not mean that Korea will stop trying to conduct their nuclear -*test*-('")s. (All of which have always been pointed toward Japan.) Now here's some commentary that actually explains to you why Japan is pissed off. http://ampontan.wordpress.com/2007/02/22/abes-poll-ratings-not-a-one-size-fits-all-answer/ It's a sad shame the media likes to portray the Japanese as inept cry babies. I used to constantly critisize Japan myself, but now I have nothing but pity for them. Because Japan is one of the prime examples of a country who has had it's reputation torn a part by an endless barrage of propaganda. In other words, Japan is living proof of how effective "Information warfare" actually is. Well that & the whole Vietnam fiasco. Damn Hippies. (To think I used to be pissed off that I'm not officially recorded as Japanese. Kinda makes me glad that I'm culturally ambiqous & the only trait I have that would identify I as Japanese is my surname. Coz seriously Japan is surrounded by enemies. Simply because the world wide opinion of Japan was mostly shaped by hear say, & rumours.) But relying on a truce made so long ago does seem pretty short-sighted considering how the times have changed, The times haven't changed that much, the only thing that has changed is that both (South)Korea & China are economical powers now. They have caught up to where Japan was years back. Except China & North Korea both have Nukes & a military. Whereas Japan only has Self defense forces & American G.I.s Remember this grudge between China,Korea,& Japan has lasted for at least 4 centuries. The main reason why we always hear about WWII is because that's the most recent incident that could be used to pin the blame on Japan. (Try logging into political forums populated by Chinese. You will often see them speaking about the rest of Asia as nothing, but children. http://chinalanguage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2969&sid=681be65d4543bd9fd3da39dcdf205314 What's hilarious though is that both Japan & China treat Korea like a joke.) I'd sincerly doubt that if a fallout were to occur in the east that the U.S. would actually do something about it. The United States tends to only confront 3rd world nations. (Of course the U.S. could kick China's ass if they wanted to, but the U.S. will most likely avoid conflict knowing all the money that could be made off of China.) Can't really blame Japan for relying on an agreement made decades ago. Japan pretty much has no choice The United States doesn't allow the japanese to build their own military, plus even if the United States did allow Japan to remilitarize in order to defend itself. Most Japanese citizens would simply never allow a remilitarization to take place. Since most Japanese are liberals, & most of them still feel guilty for what they did during WWII. Ironicly overseas we're always hearing about how evil Japan is & how the whole country is full of right wing facists. Most people don't realize that such rumours are all hear say instigated by the governments of both Korea & China. Which are than spread to the Western community by some Asian American indivduals & folks such as Iris Chang as the one & only solid account of history during WWII. I often find it hypocritical how Japan is often looked down on due to some accusations of how they "revise" their history. Yet they turn a blind eye to Korea & China who also practice a "revisionist" history. If any one is interested here's a blog written by a foreigner who tries to show you what Japan is really like. http://ampontan.wordpress.com/about/ (& not that facist fantasy goof ball world that I often see being portrayed in the internet & the media.)

You should read the whole article, there's some interesting stuff near there in the end. And I like how they brush it off by saying, "they weren't very helpful anyway." That's like admitting I use child labor to run my business, but saying it's okay because they do a terrible job. 'Liberal Japanese'? I thought the whole country was hugely conservative, since I always hear about how traditional they are, with their obsession with honoring their family, their paranoia of outsiders, and their fear of not fitting in. When you say liberal, do you mean just politically, because it doesn't seem like that socially. Though I suppose it could be another case where the minority is the group in power. Sort of like with the richest 1% over here.

Ah man just read the whole article. The link is pretty damn funny. The Americans, for instance, provided money for a boat to infiltrate Japanese agents into the Soviet island of Sakhalin — but the money, boat and agents apparently disappeared, one report said. In Taiwan, the Japanese traded recruits for shiploads of bananas to sell on the black market back home. Now that's comedy. Instead of infiltrating Russia, metal gear style (Or in this case Ninja style), they just took the money the United States funded them with to enhance their own profit. Must be a common trait among Asia. Since the governments of both China & Korea like to siphon reprimation cash from Japan's ODA loan, and fund it directly into their ecconomy. (Rather than the victims of WW II.) "In either politics or intelligence work, he is hopelessly lost both by reason of personality and lack of experience," said a CIA assessment from 1954. Another 1954 file says: "Tsuji is the type of man who, given the chance, would start World War III without any misgivings." Now That's a guy who is or was the living definition of an extremist. He sound's pretty crazy... Kodama Yoshio's value as an intelligence operative is virtually nil," says a particularly harsh 1953 CIA report. "He is a professional liar, gangster, charlatan and outright thief... Kodama is completely incapable of intelligence operations, and has no interest in anything but the profits." This man sounds like a true gangsta. I might actually learn something from him, heh heh. That's the main reason why I hate it when my mom ships money back to her homeland, because those dumbasses spend the money on crack whores & shit instead of their own education. "When we talk about the emergence of neo-nationalism or a strong right wing in Japan today, this has very deep roots and it involves a very strong element of American support," he said. Yet the ex-war criminals failed to rebuild a militarist Japan. "Prewar right-wing activists who escaped war crime charges in fact did not have much influence in the postwar period," said Eiji Takemae, historian and author of The Allied Occupation of Japan. Though it's true that America may have had a hand in at least producing the seeds for the supposed rise of the ultra "right wing" in Japan. I think it more or less would've developed on it's own considering the condescending behaviour people tend to exibit when dealing with japan. You make a good point & observation in labeling Japan as socially conservative. Since their society is based around religious doctrine/tradition from their past. (Which isn't culturally unique to the Japanese since all Asian cultures are built around the same ideals, the oldest being China & India.) As most of the young generation has shown you can act outside of the box with no reprecusions, you just won't get taken seriously. The current Prime minister IS far right wing, but I wouldn't consider him a facist. IMO he's exactly the type of guy Japan needs. (A real politician, not one who bows all day long & kisses everybodies ass.) I think Abe is the type of guy that Toru Fukushima was looking for. Coz man 2007, this is the first time in year's where I'm actually seeing Japan get more assertive with it's opinions. In the past they would just do what ever the U.S. told them to do. Ah shit I went off topic... Most Japanese are politically "liberal" though at the same time I feel that they are also liberal in the adjective sense of the word. Liberal: broad, large-minded, liberal, tolerant. Just look at how open they are in regards to pornography & all that other ish from Japan. You see a lot of stuff in Japan that would just never fly in the U.S. (Especially Hard gay, in Bob's avatar.) Most Japanese don't even pay attention to politcs. (Although they probably do now due to the current "staged" conflict at hand. I label the conflict as staged since most of the arguments directed toward Japan where all based on lies & distortions. The biggest of which is called Dokdo, the Liancourt rocks.) What should be noted is that in Asia, when you claim to be Left wing, what you are actually saying is that you are anti- Japan/ anti- USA or what not. Don't ask me. I don't understand it myself. Asia is fucked. I'm a libertarian, so I don't understand what the hell is up with Asia. Only thing I know is that their political opinions mostly revolve around "Japan's atrocities" during WW II. This blog post about a staged NHK show is prolly a good example of what the Asian Left Wing looks like http://yellowpeep.blogspot.com/2006/06/nhk-doesnt-want-american-base.html Keep in mind that when I referred to Japanese as liberal I was basically referring to the American version of Liberal (As in hippies), & not this crazed paranoia ridden asian flavoured version of a liberal. IMO if there's one thing all liberals share in common is there distaste for the government. IMO it's because of Japan's tolerance toward their neighbors that japan is in this mess in the first place. They let China & Korea form the world opinion of Japan & it's only now that Japan decides to fight back. (It took Japan this long to realize that the cold shoulder just isn't going to work.) It's a lie to say that the conservative right is in control of Japan, as they are only a fringe group. (The right wing is in control in Killer 7 though, but it's as I said before. It's because they actually get stuff done.) Like I said in my earlier posts, the world wide opinion of Japan was mostly shaped by Asian rights activists who have little or no idea what's actually going on in Japan. I note here that there are 722 seats in the Japanese parliament. Of those, far right-wing political groups hold a grand total of – are you ready? – zero seats. The far right hasn’t held a seat in parliament since World War II ended. Judging from that, it’s hard to understand why foreigners say that there’s a right-wing resurgence going on. There’s not. The far right is considered the lunatic fringe by the Japanese public. http://www.lewrockwell.com/rogers/rogers206.html But I digress. Some who visit Japan say that leftist and rightist groups are everywhere. So what's new? The big difference? The leftist clowns drive around in big white buses and vans with loud speakers blaring out some sort of nonsense about this or that. The rightist clowns drive around in big blue buses and vans with loudspeakers blaring out nonsense about that or this. The funny part is that both groups hire the same people to drive their vehicles. You will often see a huge bus screaming down the street blaring out some message that the emperor should be restored to head of state or that Japan should re-militarize the Rhineland, er, I mean, re-militarize the four small islands north of Hokkaido that the Soviets "stole" at the end of World War II. I chuckle every time I see these buses because even though the bus could ride 60 people, there is usually only one inside; the driver. The very same people who go around the country organizing festivals for different towns (kind of like the circus in the US) are the very same people who drive these buses – as part-time work – during the festival off-season. No joke. How do I know this? One of my friends is a Yakuza named Gon. He told me that this is what he does for a living. One day he might be driving a bus for the commies, the next for the fascists. What the hell, eh? It pays the bills. What does he care who he's driving the bus for as long as they pay – and pay well, I might add. http://www.lewrockwell.com/rogers/rogers156.html As for their hate or fear of foreigners, I think that's an Asian thing. Since most asian countries have a tendacy to hate on foreigners. As this behaviour is not exclusive to Japan. China,Korea,Philipines (P.I. did hate foreigner back when they had an American military base.) India,etc. also do not like foreigners. What makes Japan liberal imo is that unlike countries like Korea, Japan actually allows their children to marry outside of their ethnicity. In places like Korea, that's considered a felony. (Well not exactly,but they sure as hell treat mixed kids like shit.) What I'm getting a is that they are far more open & tolerant of "newer" and or "different" ideas. (They just won't completely accept them until it sycrhonizes with the norm,heh heh.) RANT START ---- Part-nah one thing I love about owning a forum, I can get away with some of these lil' snide comments about Japan with out some insane Japnophile freak preaching to me how peaceful they are. Yes Japanese are pacifist, that just means that they are indifferent, doesn't mean they're saints or some ish Ahh sorry about the rant, I'm still peeved at some retarded girl from a Forbidden Siren forum who couldn't understand what I meant when I said that both the United States & Japan hate foreigners. She kept speaking in a typical emotional ridden diatribe about how she doesn't know any Japanese who hates Americans. (Even though I never said anything about Japan hating America in the first place. I swear it's true "never mix politics with games", hah hah.) It's funny everybody in that dumbass Siren 2 gamefaqs board was getting on my case, they couldn't understand that I was speaking from a political point of view. I know that Japan isn't actually racist, but that doesn't imply that they actually like foreigners. When I made the comparison that both Japan & America hate foreigners, I was referring to the Japanese resentment of Asian/South American immigrants & the U.S. resentment of Mexican aliens/South American immigrants. RANT OVER ---- If Japanese truely were conservative, I'd like to think that they would've already dealt with Korea & China by now. Rather than twiddling their thumbs idly by while both China & Korea scam more money & islands from Japan. Believe me, most Japanese are too scared of war to ever want to be engaged in another one. Majority of them still feel guilty over Unit 731,Nanjing massacare,colonization of asia,etc. IMO they shouldn't be. It wasn't their fault. It's war, shit happens. What these fools need to understand is that in the world of politics & war, that in the end we're nothing more than statistics & numbers. (It kinda sucks how I can only quote blogs, but the sad truth is... these blogs are more reliable than the world media when it comes to Japan. Everybody else is too caught playing the victim card or villainizing Japan.) BTW check out this post about Japanese celebrity politicians. http://ampontan.wordpress.com/2007/01/24/japans-celebrity-politicians/#more-46 This is exactly the situation that I was referring to in the K7 SIN story page. http://killer7.3dactionplanet.gamespy.com/infowar.htm#anti

Ah shit I went off topic...Too late... This blog post about a staged NHK show is prolly a good example of what the Asian Left Wing looks likeHoly shit, you mean to tell me that the Japanese media is run by foreign propagandists? And I thought Fox News was bad... I note here that there are 722 seats in the Japanese parliament. Of those, far right-wing political groups hold a grand total of – are you ready? – zero seats. The far right hasn’t held a seat in parliament since World War II ended. Judging from that, it’s hard to understand why foreigners say that there’s a right-wing resurgence going on. There’s not. The far right is considered the lunatic fringe by the Japanese public.I've been hearing in lots of places that the conservatives were the ones in power, and you're telling me they have no influence at all? This is too confusing... One of my friends is a Yakuza named Gon. He told me that this is what he does for a living. One day he might be driving a bus for the commies, the next for the fascists. What the hell, eh? It pays the bills. What does he care who he's driving the bus for as long as they pay – and pay well, I might add.Commies and fascists. Is Japan overrun with these people? Part-nah one thing I love about owning a forum, I can get away with some of these lil' snide comments about Japan with out some insane Japnophile freak preaching to me how peaceful they are.Otakus refuse to believe anything's wrong with Japan, it's graceland for them. When you criticized Japan, you criticized their very way of life. They'd probably try to kill you in person. Wow. After reading all this stuff you've talked about, I'd have to say Japanese politics seems pretty fucked up. The Killer7 political system seems disturbingly sane by comparison.

Its really bad where I live, the local university has anime clubs, and not just one, different factions. Lets see from my memory, there is the club that shows the adult stuff (not hentai) the kiddie stuff (hamtaro) the girl-only anime club (which I heard alot of slash discussions arise from) and the "normal" anime club. Just for the record, I dont belong to any of these clubs, its hard enough for me to score a chicks number, I dont need to be seen coming out of an anime club. And yeah after reading your posts, I believe the K7 political themes are more tame than the real world counterparts. What makes me more interested in the political K7 side is how immediate the effects were. Despite it being a fictional world, the countires did act fast. Once Fukushima was out of the picture those fireworks got launched. Matsuken quickly became head of the Yakumo following the deaths of the "old blood." Even though there were outside forces at work...