Definetly agree. I loved the twists in the first one. The made sense, didn't need a whole lot of thinking, and were fun. I was so psyched when I found out that Miller was dead for three days, and it was really Liquid. Plus finding out that the DARPA chef was Decoy was sweet. And it did have some lengthy dialouge, but man no where near as bad as MGS2. Plus the boss fights were more legendary than the other games. Except for THE END and THE SORROW. And I'm not gonna lie, but I was so impressed with the Shagohod fight on Grozny Grad. I was floored by it all.

Yeah, Topdrunkee made a good point about how the plot twists in other games like the Patriots or Philosophers or whatever seemed completely random, but in the first Metal Gear Solid they constantly hinted at Miller's identity and the government's true intentions. And I loved the cast of the game because everyone, even down to the smallest bit characters, were great. Even someone with as minor role as the secretary of defense seemed like a really cool character, and even though you hardly saw him, I thought Decoy Octopus seemed pretty awesome.

I thought the secretary was a bad ass too! Every single person had a purpose, and impacted the plot changes! EVERY SINGLE ONE! Even the genome soliders!

I really liked the story in MGS3:SA, I got kinda sad when hearing about how much The Boss sacrificed for her country. The game felt like it had allot of content in it even though it was just a single player game with a monkey catching mini-game. I really liked the boss fight with the End and the chase scene towards the end of the game. Those were the highlights for me. I think MGS2 and 3 had allot of suttle clever moments that really show just how great a developer Kojima is. _______________________________________________________________ Now back on topic How come Dan is killed by an older Garcian at Union Hotel when all the others were killed by the younger Emir? Was Garcian assighned to kill Dan years after the deaths of the others? How does he have the Golden gun if that is the case?

How do you know that a younger Emir killed the rest of the Smiths? Ya never do see him. You just know its him because of what Y. Harman tells you, and the gun shots sound like the gun shots from the Golden Gun.

So you think that theirs a possibility that adult Garcian did the all or most of the killings? And that he got brainwashed by the government some time during adulthood? I only think that he used the Golden gun in the adult Emir did in the Smiths scenario because he clearly has it in the cutscene were he ices Dan.

I never even thought about the relevance of the Golden Gun before. Is it just some referrence to Bond films, or was it an important aspect of the story?

It probaly does from what I saw. It kills the smiles with one shot, and it appears to be the gun Garcian/Emir uses to kill the smithes, and he gets during it his awakining process. Also its his apparent weapon of choice in killing smiles after Emir rebirths inside of Garcian, as he uses it in Lion. How the gun is connected to Greg Nightmare I'm not sure. The gun obviosly has special properties as Dan and Coyote can't weild it even though they carried high calibur revolvers before Emir even killed the smiths(they also use them throughout the game). It probaly is a bond reference but I think it has a special connection with Emir too.

Greg probaly obtained the gun through the school(Emir probaly returned to the Japanese controlled school after killing the smiths). The golden gun could very well be a piece of simple community property that the assasins from the school share for jobs. The gun Matsuken was carrying at the school gym was gold too, not sure if that means anything.

As for the Killer 7 themselves, I picked up on that as soon as Y.Harman (I will call him that since it is the name of the dude you can play as in Kiler tell you the truth. Young Harman was just a gameplay extra & his inclusion in Killer 8 has no relevance to the story. (Which is why the story is exactly the same in Killer 8 ) Young Harman himself is a government agent who may have had a hand in creating the Killer 7 facade. He calls him self Harman Smith, but for all we know it's probably just a code name. Either that or Y.Harman is the real Harman Smith & the principal stuffed inside the safe was just labeled as Harman Smith to further prepertuate the belief that Harman Smith was Emir's mentor. I also figured the K7 originals were Dan, Mask, Garcian and Kevin. The rest are all newbie members. Especially Con. Garcian is not part of Killer 7 at all. As he's just a persona of Harman Smith. The Garcian persona is what gives Emir the ability to change shape into the other Killer 7. (In HIK7 Garcian was the first persona to be killed by Harman.) Dan, Mask & Kevin are the only members of the Killer 7 who have developed personalities. (Kevin being mute is part of his personality.) The rest are not newbie members. They're innocent by standers who happened to share the surname smith. (Coyote has a gun,because he's a Latin gangsta.) The Union Hotel murders are a hybrid of HIK7's French Hotel murders of seven random individuals with the sur name smith, & the murders of the Union 7 political party at Union Hotel. (Obviously not every Union 7 member was killed since Fukushima himself is a member of Union 7.) the chase scene towards the end of the game. Those were the highlights for me. The motorcylce chase was fun. I also liked the fight with the Boss, because it reminded moi of Cowboy Bebop. (Emir probaly returned to the Japanese controlled school after killing the smiths). Y. Harman makes it clear that he took Emir under his wing when he found Emir at the rooftop of the Union Hotel. (Shortly after Emir shot himself during the Union hotel murders.) Judging by that, I think it's safe to assume that's when Emir became a pet of the government. As for Coburn... The Japanese don't control the school. They only influence the educational process of Coburn. Officialy Coburn elementary is American property, but in reality is a breeding ground to teach American kids to become politicians & assassins that work against the United States government through backstage politics. (Linda Vermilion is probably one such example of the Coburn upbringing.) The gun obviously has special properties as Dan and Coyote can't weild it even though they carried high calibur revolvers before Emir even killed the smiths They can't use the Desert Eagle because they are not real. Garcian's sense of reality was dissipating by the time he reached Coburn Elementary. Possiblly due to all the incriminating evidence of his forged identity through the FBI tapes & from the convos he had with Matsuken,Y. Harman, & Linda. So the truth that he thought he knew (Such as the Killer 7) begun to vanish. I still feel that what made the "final cut" into Killer 7 should take the precedence. Especially since American K7 gamers (outside) this website have no real fucking clue that HIK7 even exists. I forgot to mention this last time, but it's common practice for many online communities to rely on outside material that was released only in Japan. It's common knowledge to most Suikoden II fans that one of the main reasons why Luca Blight is so insane & wants to destroy the Jowston City States. Is because Luca Blight's mother was actually raped in front of him when he was a kid. This info was nowhere to be found in the actual game, but it is mentioned in the Genso Suikoden magazines that contain previously unknown background story for the games. In Berserk online communities such as Skullknight.net they make it a point to only rely on the official Japanese dialogue since many pieces of the story line either gets lost through translation or changed signifcantly when converted to english. I can't see why HIK7 shouldn't be used in the same context. It makes more logical sense IMO to rely on written material that was actually devised by the creators themselves rather than a written document that was devised by a 3rd party. (This includes plot faqs that read like fan fiction.)

So if the Smiths arent real we can assume that Garcian simply used their weapens throughout the game, to kill the smiles, and just took on their personality's which I imagine that Garcy completly fabricated as he only saw these people just one night,and had to guess what they were really like when using their persona's? I always interpreted that the Smiths did exist just as a part of Garcian. That their spirits were still on this earth just inside of him. If the Smiths dont exist how come Curtis addresses Garcy as Dan when they meet and fight. Curtis is obviosly a real person so I'm figuring he ether could tell that the Dan persona was controlling Garcain at the time and addressed him as such, or that Garcian simply could manipulate his image to match his current persona. If Garcian had the special ability to see the Smiles and detect things with phycic powers I'm sure he could posses other special powers as well. All the cutscenes throughout the game ether vagualy address who the character their talking to is(making seem that it could be anyone of the Killer7)or address Garcian("we dont get many black folk around here"). This is obviosly a way to make it a mystery as to who the character your conversing with actually sees.

I agree with you, however you seem to be misunderstanding my point... This is not Emir's personal issue to deal with. Killer 7 is about "information warfare" & how the pawns who get caught up in the mix are often screwed. So if the Smiths arent real we can assume that Garcian simply used their weapens throughout the game, When I say the Smiths aren't real. I mean they just don't exist in the official sense. Call it a technical legality. For all intents & purposes that Killer 7 are non existant. If Emir doesn't believe in Garcian any more than that means he can't change shape into the other K7. Therefore they cease to exist. I always interpreted that the Smiths did exist just as a part of Garcian. That their spirits were still on this earth just inside of him. They are, & the main reason for that is because Garcian is a persona of Harman Smith. Killer 7 form shape through the Multifoliate Personae Phenomenon. http://www.killer7.3dactionplanet.gamespy.com/3rdeye.htm An ability or biological deformity that only Harman Smith has been known to posess. Since Garcian Smith is a persona of Harman... That also implies that a part of Harman Smith is also with Emir Parkreiner, & that part that I'm referring to is Garcian Smith. You need to remember that Garcian & Emir aren't the same person. Emir himself is just a product of government manipulation to the point that we don't even know what his real name actually is. If you take the Garcian Smith persona away from Emir than that means that Killer 7 vanish along with Garcian. (Which is exactly what happened in Smile part 2.) When I say that they can't pick up the golden gun because they don't exist it's because by that time Emir was starting to doubt his constructed reality. He probably didn't believe in his identity as Garcian any more. (It took Y.Harman to get him to believe that he's actually Emir Parkreiner.) It's basically the same concept that was used in the Matrix, how there's a wall there only because you believe it. Since Emir couldn't faithfully believe in his existance as Garcian any more his ability to change shape into the Killer 7 fades away along with it. I've explained the above many times before, so I guess I seriously need to write a FAQ thread for this forum sometime. I imagine that Garcy completly fabricated as he only saw these people just one night,and had to guess what they were really like when using their persona's? That or maybe he was implanted with memories & thoughts by the government on how they were thought to behave. The Killer 7 are an urban myth fictionalized by the government to cover up the Union hotel murders due to naitonal security issues. Or at least that's what we're told by Y. Harman. Note: The security issue being referred to IMO is that the "real" Killer 7 (Who are affiliated with the United States government) were murdered by some punk kid from Coburn Elementary. If one kid from such an establishment could cause such a blow to the defenses of the United States government imagine what would happen if a whole army of Emir Parkreiner's were employed against the United States. Best course of action is to apprehend the assilant & force him to work for your cause. This is how the Killer 7 under Emir Parkreiner is born. As a lie of convenience to keep him hidden away from the truth of his real purpose of existance. IMO judging from HIK7 & K7: Con Smith was never an assassin & Kaede was just some upstart politician's bitch. (Matsuken) Coyote Smith is a random thug. It's not too hard to believe that some members were never part of the Killer 7 at all. If you notice only Dan & Mask have their own cutscenes. Dan himself even mentions the Killler 7 at one point. Since Kevin was killed with no provocation at all, & not in a isolated place like Coyote/KAEDE/Con. I'm led to assume that he too was affiliated with the Killer 7. Only some of the members of the "real" Killer 7 were killed that day. The rest of the death toll was added in to form the Killer 7 that we know. It's common practice for goverements to form lies of convenience to cover their asses to avoid poltical hiccups in order to keep the system of logical events to operate in a smooth manner. Here's another example of "lies of convenience" In Suda 51's game,Silver Case. The Silver Case that is often referred to is the incident involving the deaths of several high ranking politicians at the top of a tv tower meeting. A man named Camui Uehara was blamed on for the Silver Case murders, but in reality he was no where near the crime scene at all. It was actually a hitman sent by Sundance Shot (Sundance is the leader of the FSO right wing political party) who attempted to murder the politicians at the meeting yet he was killed during the assassination attempt. After the hitman was killed the remaining politicians at the meeting killed each other in order to obtain a piece of the hitman's silver eye. This is what causes the massive massacre that we call the "Silver Case" Since it wouldn't look good on paper to explain that the Silver Case was an isolated incident that ocurred due to allied politicians killing each other for a rare artifact. A lie of convenience was formed & the blame was pinned on the government boogie man "Camui Uehara" (Like the Killer 7, he doesn't actually exist.) Camui Uehara does have a physical form, but his sole purpose in life is to create anxiety & chaos whereever he goes. In order to divert negative attention away from the government. The Killer 7 were created for a similar purpose, to cover up a security hole that was leaked due to the deaths of some of the members of the Killer 7. If you're wondering no I have no idea who the Killer 7 are, I don't think you're supposed to know who the real Killer 7 are much like how you're never meant to know what Emir's/Garcian's real identity actualy is.

Yeah I caught that question early on, about how can real people address specific members of the Killer 7. So when you change the personae, and you see all the particles and ish fly around, that is really happening in "real-life." As for the Golden Gun, I believe it is the gun of guns. If Emir Parkreiner is the Assassin of all Assassins (which is what Travis wants to be, oh, HOW SWEET WOULD IT BE IF EMIR WAS THE FINAL BOSS IN NO MORE HEROES!) then he need a gun that is as powerful as he is. And yeah its a very cool James Bond reference. But as to why Greg Nightmare has it, I have no clue. And I agree, Topdrunkee, you should settle down some time and write out your K7 plot FAQ. I'd sure as shit read every word!

Settle down? Come on theres like no practical way to explain this shit in a simple manner. I have to explain this ish in detail, because I can't imagine how anybody could simplify the story themes of K7 & still make them understandable. I'm just trying to help others understand the story with more clarity, which should be the duty of all webmasters. The webmaster of http://skullknight.net/ makes long ass posts like I usually do explaining the details of Berserk's story all the time, but at least he's not labeled as oppinonated or pretentious like I am. Sure Skullknight.net may have the reputation for being bitchy & elitist, but there's a reason for that. It's because they can not stand misinformation. It's this very same misinformation that I'm trying to combat against. (The plot faq IMO did wonders to confuse the hell out of the majority of the K7 fans. I'm just trying to recitify that.) Like Skullknight.net which is the one place that I can rely on for what's actually going on in Berserk. I'm striving for K7 SIN to be the place to go to for the real dirt behind K7. So when you change the personae, and you see all the particles and ish fly around, that is really happening in "real-life." The only reason why it's possible is because of Harman Smith's Multifoliate Personae Phenomenon. An ability which Emir inherited due to the Garcian Smith persona. (Which is orginally one of Harman's personae.) (which is what Travis wants to be, oh, HOW SWEET WOULD IT BE IF EMIR WAS THE FINAL BOSS IN NO MORE HEROES!) Not going to happen. Emir is a Capcom character. Suda 51 does not own the full rights to Emir's design. Most you could hope for is a subtle reference to the Killer 7. Sure GHM could go through all the legalities & trouble just to get one character in the game, but why bother? Suda 51 already has a whole stable of chracters that he can use from Silver Case & FSR. Personally I'd rather be seeing Silver Eyed, eye patch wearing suit & tie badass, Sundance from "Flower, Sun & Rain/Silver Case" since he even has his own badass theme song to go along with it. Plus FSR & No More Heroes are made by the same exact companies & development teams so I wouldn't be too surprised to see some Silver Case or FSR characters making a cameo appearance in NMH.

You should probably combine all your posts on the Killer 7 story from this board into a plot guide or something, you seem to go into a lot more detail than Shockley Haynes.