You guys prove people wrong/counter-point with actual CLASS (Which is more then I can say for other sites). Yeah, that's what we strive for. I'll say that much. Unfortunately it doesn't always work out. (KOF XII thread.) I'm probably just way too influenced by the original English Megaten/Persona community that originated back in 96/97. I try to bring the class & sophistication that the original fanbase had over to the Suda 51 community, since that's how influential Megaten truly was imo. Those games sparked intellectual banter in pretty much the same manner that Suda 51 games do. (Except Suda games are noticeably less "mature" than old school Megaten.) Hah hah, I feel you with the "other sites" comment. There's some message boards that I sometimes post at where I just want to beat the shit out of the webmasters, because they're nothing more than pretentious ass wipes who think they're smart. However I'm forced to keep a tactful facade, since this is the internet (Whereas in real life I'd just kick their ass for speaking to moi in an inappropriate & disrespectful manner.) But, yeah. It sucks that it lost it's "soul", but as with your anology with the Girl, you should do the same as you would there. Once something loses its essence, jump ship. Go to a new "girl", as the one you liked before just isn't the same, and you aren't going to change her, as much as it sucks. Sometimes, I guess you just can't win... That analogy doesn't really hold though. Since Megaten was one of a kind. (I don't really attach myself to any one woman. I'm a love em & leave em type. I don't get the same bounty full of knowledge from other people like I once did with a good ol' Megaten game.) Can you name me at least one other RPG that was even remotely similar or as smart as Megaten? The closest that I can come up with are Xenosaga & Shadow Hearts. Which isn't close at all. Xenosaga may be philosophical, but it's mostly retarded anime bullshit peppered up with misquoted philosophy. Shadow Hearts is nothing like Megaten, but it is somewhat similar to the original Persona trilogy. As they both borrowed a lot from H.P. Lovecraft. However SH seems to pander to fan service way too much for my liking. Persona had some of that as well, but they were usually presented as personality flaws that needed to be eradicated in order to become whole with one's sense of self. Persona also seemed to implement it's Lovecraftian influences with more finesse & accuracy than SH. As it's depictions of the Crawling Chaos looked & acted exactly as he's described. They also get points for implementing Jungian's familiar spirit "Philemon" seamlessly into the Persona back story without it seeming forced. The only thing that really comes close to the old school feel of Megaten is Suda 51's Kill the Past games. (Silver Case, Silver Case 25 Ward, Flower Sun and Rain, Moonlight Syndrome. Killer 7 heavily references these games.) Even then that's still not close enough, because Megaten games actually have good gameplay, lol. Which is something that Suda games seem to lack. (That & KTP games aren't rpgs.) That and Megaten games were classy, whereas Suda games tend to be more on the trashy side. Here's a video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8HDjf1qL54 and some pics of what the original Megaten creators looked like. Left: Kazuma Kaneko Middle: Satomi Tadashi Right: Cozy Okada I'm pointing this out, because they don't look like the type of people who would just make a kickass game for the hell of it. They look like they plan every story detail & message that they want to convey before hand. Satomi Tadashi was basically the father of Persona. Which is why the Persona games were always more "mainstreamed" than the other megatens. I sometimes get the feeling that the original Persona trilogy was just a fluke. A fluke in the sense that it was only cool/culturally & politically relevant, because Persona was a failed attempt at making a mainstream Jrpg. The problem that the original Persona games had was Kazuma Kaneko & Cozy Okada themselves. Okada's story & Kaneko's art direction just don't sync well with the type of "mainstream" crowd that they were aiming for with the original Persona trilogy. (Persona 2 was actually drawn by the P3/P4 artist, but P2 looked good to moi, because the art was based off of Kaneko's art direction.) Persona games were always popular in Japan, but I think it had more to do with how culturally "Japanese" Persona games used to be. As opposed to now where Persona just mimics Anime. (People mistakenly believe that Persona 3 is culturally "Japanese" when it's really just a Anime interpretation of Japan.) Persona got more popular in both Japan & the West when it decided to adopt the Anime template for story, & art direction. Basically my main beef with modern day Persona is that it killed off the identity of the former game & gives people the wrong impression of what Persona used to be. Persona was a power play between two gods who were trying to decide the fate of humanity. You just don't see anything like that in modern day Persona games. (Let alone the political shit such as Hitler & the New World Order.) IMO, Atlus should've gave the modern Persona games a different name since it's obvious that modern Persona wouldn't appeal to the older Persona fans. Atlus should've went with something like "Student maker", "Power of friendship" or what not, because modern day Persona is nothing like the original three titles. Which were mostly focused on conspiracy, murder & occult demonic rituals. None of that feel good Lunar "power of love" shit that was in P3. (I'm not dissing Lunar, I'm just saying. Lunar is good, because it's Lunar. It's not trying to be anything else.) What bothers moi the most is that the original Persona trilogy will forever be lost in obscurity much like the original Phantasy Star series. These days Phantasy Star lives on in name only. (Through the online games & shitty ass PS Universe) The 80's sci fi spirit of the original Phantasy Star games have never been replicated since. Which is exactly what I predict will happen to the original Persona trilogy. A decade from now you will still not see another rpg series that was anywhere near psychological & sub culturally relevant (To Japan at least. Since Persona originally just pulled shit from real life & inserted it into the game.) as the original Persona games. I won't even get started with the true megaten games, since the only rpg that was as philosophical as SMT happened to be Planescape Torment. In the world of video games. Planescape torment is pretty much the closest to replicating the treasure trove of knowledge that you gain from reading a philosophy based book. What I'm trying to say is that the reason why some people can't accept the change is because the older megaten games fulfilled a niche that wasn't occupied by anyone else. Since Devil Summoner & Persona have both changed completely from what they originally were. The void that they once filled is now empty. It's probably a good thing though. It's probably a sign that I need to stop wasting my time with story based videogames, since I'm getting way too old for Vg's anyway. Megaten games appeal to a completely different audience now. An audience that I'm not part of, and I've learned to accept that. The type of content that most story based video games have just don't appeal to my sensibilities. Rather than containing a wealth of information like a good book. Most of todays games seem to either pander to the hollywood or anime style of superficial story telling.

New Persona > Old Persona Said by someone who never played P2. This is why I don't like most new megaten fans.

Meh, fans come in varieties. I for one don't like having anyone's ideals or fantasies shoved in my face and rammed down my throat. I'll probably be a little off on some of the things I say but here goes. Granted, the only Persona game I've ever played is Persona 2: Eternal Punishment. It was cool, it was weird, and a little corny in regards to how some of the characters acted/reacted, but I enjoyed it. I didn't get all the references on the first run through, but it was enough for me to look up a couple online. Dug the character designs in P2. Soejima did an awesome job adapting Kaneko's concepts into the game. I kept staring at the way the guy was able to draw ANYONE. I don't mind the character designs for P3 or P4, but frankly I thought Soejima was being lazy with anatomy. Still love his use of colours. The personae are stylish as usual, as they're the big staple in the series. But what the hell... First guns, now glasses? I've got absolutely no idea why the developers need another gimmick. As for the typical Japanese angst, corny pep talk, and tried -*test*-('")ed true plot twists, couldn't they have found a better writer anyway? Dai Sato comes to mind, even though he tends to be a random philsophical rambler, he's still tons better than all those other writers pandering to lolicon freaks. Here I was always under the impression that the Megaten series had this upscale/uptown "better than you mainstream folk" vibe. Ok, so maybe having to plow through endless discussions over ideologies and culture references is fun in certain amounts, fine. Nothing wrong with slowly learning new things that might actually stick with you for life. But at least give us some freaking plausible characters in a dense and coherent storyline that doesn't drag things out. I'm quite certain there are people out there being paid to be forced to write a certain way. It's like creative freedom is for those whose works won't be popular with the audience. The persona anime, while freaky and slightly fanservice-y in its own way, I think represents the future of Persona games down the road. No more gods or mythology. Just a bunch of conflicted people digging into themselves to figure things out on their own, and then feel the aftereffects of how their actions affected others around them. Social/politcal commentary could be doable, but it seems like the audience these days rather see characters dance in the palm of their hands. Atlus doesn't care. Money's comin in. And one or two of us are on pins and needles hoping that it's going towards a better game.

it's attitudes like that that make developers not make cool, smart, games, and just Wii minigame collections. The more accepted by adults, the closer to art, thus more risks taken in game design! Very Happy I really don't understand your argument. Could you elaborate?The only reason why adults would accept P3 is because P3 is better than any other Jrpg out on the market right now. That has more to do with how childish games are in general. Persona 3 did not do anything new at all. P3 basically catered to an already established dating sim japanese market. In a way you could consider that selling out. Considering how popular most games with dating sim aspects are. (Sakura Taisen for example.) P3 only looks unique to most of us Western gamers, because the only other games in the West that are remotely similar to P3 are Azure Dreams & Thousand Arms. I grew up as a teenager in Japan. Trust me. Games that use a similar style to P3 are a dime a dozen. I mean come on, Japan has been repping school sim life rpg hybrids since the pc engine days. (Possibly even earlier then that.) I remember playing a game awhile back that played like a funner version of Persona 3. The Adventure of Hourai High School http://agtp.romhack.net/project.php?id=hourai I could actually explore the city & school that I lived in. (Unlike P3.) When I join clubs I actually get different people to talk to whereas P3 shared the same characters no matter what club you joined. As for the subject matter of Persona... The earlier Persona games were far more adult than the current Persona titles. The earlier Persona games had homicides, people painting walls with blood, Persona summoning Yakuza, Nazi's going on killing sprees, the New World Order (LOL!) summoning demons, etc. Persona originally felt like a Japanese school horror movie like Eko Eko Azarak. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_QiQFZIRls The two Persona 2 Sin/ Punishment games felt like a long running Japanese TV drama. (Most of the characters in P2 seem to be based off of real world celebrities & people anyway.) http://wiki.d-addicts.com/Trick_3 P3 & P4 look like & feel like common everyday anime Persona games have never been exactly what I call taking a risk. Persona started off as nothing more than a SMT IF rehash with heavy Jungian overtones. Megaten in particular has never been a series that ever took "risks" That's more of a Suda 51 philosophy. Megaten has always worked with a specific style. It just so happens that I don't like their new style. That's okay. That's just my problem, but that doesn't mean that I have to like it, & I'm not trying to convince anybody not to like the new Persona. I'm just explaining why I don't like it. Seriously I just want to drop this shit. Persona games don't appeal to me now, & that's that. This isn't the first time that it has happened. Many old school megaten fans left megaten shortly after Persona 2 was released, because Persona was less philosophical then the megatens that came before it. I used to be some what of a P2 hater myself, but I didn't hate P2 enough to leave megaten. (As it still looked & felt like a "megaten" game.) The P2 games actually felt like megaten. P3 does not. It's just a decent game with the Persona name slapped onto it. I would have no problems with Persona 3 at all if it weren't called Persona. Now persona's original identity has been lost. Much like Shining Force & Phantasy Star before it. My sister said it best. She'll still purchase Persona 4, because she sees it like Final Fantasy. As shitty & lame as they have gotten. Persona & Final Fantasy are still better than most of the games out there on the market. I feel that Persona is one of those games that was never meant to leave Japanese shores, because the first three (P MIB, P2 IS, & P2 EP) were very japanese when it came to all the subculture references & the like. One trip to the Digital Devil Database boards is proof enough that Persona games prior to P3 were never meant for an overseas audience. I see people at those boards making a lot of inane generalizations about the Japanese. Which isn't exactly their (the forum posters) fault. The original Persona games were never meant for an overseas audience. The Yakuza series is the most recent example of a game that I can think of that doesn't really translate well outside of Japan. Why, because Yakuza is too Japanese. (You need to have actually grown up or lived in Japan for some time to understand the messages, themes, & culture that the Yakuza games represent.) I wish I could explain it better about how heavily embed with japanese culture the original Persona games were. All I know is that everything that I thought was plain, boring, or ugly about the original Persona. Turned out to actually be a reference or a homage to the current japanese youth subculture of the given time frame. I wasn't finally aware of that until Persona 2 released back in 1999/2000 when I was still living in Japan. I need to ask some Japanese people what they felt like. WHen they first played Persona MIB/P2 IS/P2 EP for the first time. (I've never meant a Japanese person in real life who actually played the original 3 Persona games. Most Japanese people only play Dragon Quest.) It's probably the same feeling that most of us in the West get when we play a GTA game. In the sense that the game seems to mirror the real world in terms of cultural references that only us in the West (More specifically American) would get. Note: It's kinda hilarious how GTA is actually developed by Europeans yet there able to paint a satirical portrait of AMerica so flawlessly. Enough about that, & fuck the whole argument about art. I'm sick & tired of getting into arguments of what art is. Whatever it is. It sure not Megaten as it currently is now. I honestly couldn't care less about Megaten anymore. I finally remembered why I ditched Megaten in the first place. It's because I couldn't stand the fanbase. I keep thinking that the Megaten fanbase was so cool. WHen I think about it. It was only a handful of posters who were actually cool, & smart. The rest were just snobby assholes. Remember when I said that there's some asswipes on the internet who I just want to beat the shit out of? I was mainly referring to pretentious mothafuckas like yksehtniycul. http://www.digitaldevildb.com/bbs/search.php?searchid=17330 What's funny is how he poses as if he's so smart, yet much of what he says is really just veiled indirect insults. I don't understand why the people at Digital Devil Database put up with his shit. (I think most of them don't seem to realize that they're getting dissed, because of his passive aggressive attitude.) yksehtniycul makes people like moi & decoy look like amateurs when it comes to being snobby & obnoxious. (No offense decoy. You're like the Harman Smith of this forum, and I'm Kun Lan, lol.) I've never spoken to yksehtniycu, but I will say this. Thank goodness for anonymity on the internet, because his posts are so annoying that it makes moi want to track him down & stab his eyes out with a fork. That way he won't be able to see his keyboard anymore so I'd no longer have to pass by one of his irritating posts ever again, lol.

I don't mind the character designs for P3 or P4, but frankly I thought Soejima was being lazy with anatomy. I think that's just his style. His proportions seem to always be off. Stella Deus looked exactly the same way. Soejima seems to be one of those artists who's better at adapting other people's designs rather than creating his own. I don't really have a problem with the art btw. I'm not into anime, but whatever. I just hate the direction of the game. It doesn't have that dark occult overtone that megaten games used to have. I don't hate on shit just because it looks like anime. 12riven 12RIVEN -the Ψcliminal of integral- http://www.kid-game.co.jp/12r/ is a good example of game that I think looks pretty cool. The art style looks horrid imo, but the overall atmosphere of 12riven is dark, twisted & foreboding. Which is why 12riven appeals to me, and the new Megaten games do not. It was cool, it was weird, and a little corny in regards to how some of the characters acted/reacted, but I enjoyed it. I didn't get all the references on the first run through, but it was enough for me to look up a couple online. That's because EP doesn't really translate well into English. You need a Phoenix Wright caliber translation in order to pull off a successful translation of the original Persona games. By Phoenix Wright what I'm referring to is that Persona needs to be entirely Americanized with equal equivalents of the originally intended dialogue or cultural references. Ex. A Mr. Tamori joke or pun would be translated as a reference to a Dave Chappell punch line or some other equivalent comedian. A lot of the Engrish that's used in EP aren't really translation errors at all. They're actually homages to commonly used phrases of the mid to late 90's Japan timeframe. The main one that comes to mind is "Girls be ambitious" I think an hilarious nonsensical American equivalent would be something like "My milkshake brings all the boys to the yard." FYI milkshake = blowjob. girls be ambitious = bitch or whore. (I think. Can't remember.) Phoenix Wright does such a good job of replicating & Westernizing the original script that I actually think that Phoenix Wright is even more hilarious than its japanese counterpart. You also need to play Innocent Sin along with Eternal Punishment in order to understand the game. This shit may sound hilarious, but Maya Amano is actually an alien, lol. It's pulled off pretty cleverly when you see how IS explains it though. As for the typical Japanese angst, corny pep talk, and tried -*test*-('")ed true plot twists, couldn't they have found a better writer anyway? That's part of the reason why the newer megaten games don't feel like megaten. Megaten games (save for Devil Summoner & Persona) have always felt somewhat decadent, & morbid. I like the way teen angst is handled in P2 Eternal Punishment, because everybody insults Tatsuya (The only playable teen in the game.) for it. Maya even slaps him in the face, because she couldn't stand how retarded Tatsuya's angst got. The persona anime, while freaky and slightly fanservice-y in its own way, I think represents the future of Persona games down the road. No more gods or mythology. Just a bunch of conflicted people digging into themselves to figure things out on their own, and then feel the aftereffects of how their actions affected others around them. Social/politcal commentary could be doable, but it seems like the audience these days rather see characters dance in the palm of their hands. Atlus doesn't care. Money's comin in. I think Atlus just does it, because they need money to stay afloat. The main reason Cozy Okada left was because he wanted to maintain the freedom that he once had with Megaten games before Atlus started falling into its financial crisis. I agree with you that Trinity is the future. I doubt that any new megaten games will ever feel the same as a true megaten game. (The last one we ever had was Nocturne.) People always go on about how all you need to do is wait for the newest Shin Megami Tensei (The main series.) to drop. What people don't seem to realize is that a new SMT only comes out once every 8 to 10 years. That's like saying don't worry. You won't get the death penalty, you'll just be sentenced to life behind bars. I'm not getting any younger, so fuck waiting for a new SMT game. I've got better things to do with my time than complain about some irrelevant ass video games.

Here I was always under the impression that the Megaten series had this upscale/uptown "better than you mainstream folk" vibe. That's more or less what the fanbase is like. Rather than what Megaten itself actually represents. (The megaten fanbase has some of the most obnoxious snobs I've ever seen. The few that come to mind are yksehtniycul, Sayckeone, Heat, etc.) Megaten doesn't purposely try to be different from mainstream games. It just had a different set of goals. If you want to know why I don't consider P3 as a Megaten game. First off, Megaten is short for Megami Tensei. Which is the metempsychosis of a Goddess deity transferred into the shell of a female human being. While only the original Megaten on the NES revolved around a goddess. All Megaten games in some shape or form have always had at least one female who could fit the mold of the transmigrated goddess into the human world. SMT II had Beth, Nocturne had Yuko, Devil Summoner had Reihou, Soul Hackers had Nemissa, Persona had Maki Sonomura, Persona 2 IS & EP had Maya Amano, Digital Devil Saga 1 & 2 had Sera. (Or whatever her name was.) Persona 3 doesn't have a goddess figure at all. Yukari is just a school girl who's family has been mixed up with a conspiracy by Mitsuru's family. Mitsuru herself is just trying to repent for her families mistakes. Contrast that with Persona 2's Maya Amano who happens to be a Maiyan Alien descendant of the Oxlahuntiku tribe. The Oxlahuntiku & Bolontiku are supposedly the ancestors of humankind. http://www.chthonian.net/persona/tsumi/characters/laqetti.html Okay, in short, here's the deal with In-Laqetti. There were two tribes of Maiyan aliens who came to the earth from the Pleiades - the Bolontiku and the Oxlahuntiku - and they rode a ship called "Xibalba." They set up a home on Earth, buried Xibalba in the place where Sumaru City would eventually be built, and went around spreading civilization. These were the ancestors of humankind. The great buildings of the Mayan people of South America were actually made by the aliens, and the Mayans worshipped the two tribes as gods. Eventually the two tribes started fighting, and the "good" Oxlahuntiku were wiped out by the "bad" Bolontiku. But the Bolontiku were drained of energy by the war, and they went into hibernation in Xibalba underneath Sumaru City. There was a prophecy about the raising of Xibalba known as the "Oracle of Maiya." Quote: In the end, it turns out that both she and Amano Maya were direct descendents of the bloodline of the Maiyan aliens - making them both Maiyan Maidens that could fulfill the Oracle with their death. At first Okamura intended to die herself, but then Nyarlathotep used her as a convenient pawn to stab Amano Maya with the Lance of Longinus and kill her. Great, Okamura, you proved sensei right, and now the world's been destroyed! Nutty bitch. You can read more about it at this thread forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=840" target="_blank">http://killer7.6.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=840 Here's a requote of an earlier post that I wrote about how the apocalypse unfolds throughout the two main timelines of SMT. Persona & Devil Summoner on the other hand are (or were) part of the SMT IF timeline. Whereas the original SMT took a more literal, realistic approach of how human civilization may end. Persona pursued a more ethereal, spiritual version of the end of days. By focusing on the dead Mayan civilization. Although the world did get destroyed in (1999) Innocent Sin. Oracle of Maiya personatsumi-12.wmv - 0.97MB SMT IF's timeline is lucky, because Philemon gave Tatsuya's crew a second chance to start over with the birth of the Eternal Punishment world. All they had to do was to relinquish all memories of each other in order to bring back Maya & human civilization. (So in effect everybody from Innocent Sin died or lost their memory.) The Innocent Sin that occurred is that Tatsuya created a paradox, because his memories of the other side (Innocent Sin) re awoke when he bumped into Maya Amano at a subway station during the ending of Innocent Sin. Innocent Sin Ending personatsumi-ending.wmv - 0.95MB Eternal Punishment's reality isn't a reborn world at all. It's just the world rewound before the conditions of the "Oracle of Maiya" were set. All those responsible for the apocalypse lost all memories of each other. The problem is that IMO it seems that Maya & Tatsuya are supposed to represent an ironic presentation of Adam & Eve. Instead of giving birth to mankind, Maya & Tatsuya actually destroy it through the power of non thought. What Maya & Tatsi's awakened consciousnesses actually does is reawaken every bodies repressed memories of the Innocent Sin world. If too many people recall the other side. Than the Eternal Punishment reality will disappear, and revert back to the Innocent Sin reality where everybody died. This is actually referenced in Persona 3 during the Innocent Sin online game. Where the game jokingly tells you about Maya & Tatsuya gazing at the sun set. Amongst the remains & rubble of our entire civilization. The Maya avatar in P3 than says "Screw this. It's just a game." Note: I say were, because it's obvious that Atlus doesn't care about the timelines anymore after seeing how different P3 & Devil Summoner 3 were.

Wow, I REALLY missed Persona 2's plot (unsurprising, since I played it a few years ago when I was like 14 or 15.) Since I still haven't beaten it I think I'll restart it, along with some of the other old megaten games. Hopefully it'll clear that nasty taste from recent games out. The only person I recognize of the list drunkee posted is Heat, whom I agree is a raging asshole, but I agree with him on a lot of things. The other members I don't recognize, but after searching through their posts they don't seem that bad. Oh, and why is it that the velvet room keeps changing? And why does Igor need yet another whore? Elizabeth got old?

I probably missed the piece of info, but will Persona 4 only have a single dungeon like Persona 3's Tartarus? Yeah, Persona 3 had some pretty decent story/dungeon events outside of Tartarus, but there were too few and far between. If Persona 4 goes back to having dungeons/leveling up primarily in urban areas, I might give it a shot.

LOL, this ish was way too funny. http://ampontan.wordpress.com/2008/03/25/japanese-students-dumbed-down-to-western-levels/ Paul Says: Thursday, March 27, 2008 at “Why would that make a difference, however?” Because despite the fact that English is a mandatory subject in K-through-12 schools there, almost none of them get even the least bit good at it. Even the teachers there are Japanese people who aren’t exactly fluent. I remember Peter Payne’s story about seeing a teacher at an elementary school basically teaching students that something along the lines of “Let’s positive thinking!” was correct English. I kept thinking of Maya Amano when he said that. I had no idea that Maya's catch phrase was that common irl. Here's some more Engrish. Girls be ambitious, boys be audacious. Wow, I REALLY missed Persona 2's plot (unsurprising, since I played it a few years ago when I was like 14 or 15.) Most of that plot information comes from Innocent Sin. Which is why the Persona 2 story is often misinterpreted outside of Japan. Tsumi is about the fall of human civilization as interpreted by the Mayans. Tsumi's story revolves around a fabricated book (The books is considered fiction even in the Tsumi game world.) that is very similar to the likes of the Koran & the Bible. Batsu is about the nature of rumours that often get sprinkled with truth which in turn form conspiracy theories. (The NWO in P2 EP.) Batsu's main conflict is that the world was slowly reverting back to the Tsumi reality. (Life after the apocalypse.) Due to a domino effect that Maya Amano created when Tatsuya Suou regained his memories after bumping into her at a subway during the Innocent Sin ending. I probably missed the piece of info, but will Persona 4 only have a single dungeon like Persona 3's Tartarus? There's a possibility that it might have more then one dungeon. Since P4 is said to revolve more around mystery like Soul Hackers & the P2 games. There's also rumours that Nyarlarthotep (Crawling Chaos) will come back, but it's all hearsay for the time being. Hopefully the dungeons won't be randomly generated this time. I'd cop P4 on the spot if it marked the return of secondary firearms/guns. (Which has been missing from megaten since P2. The DDS games don't count, because the guns added nothing to the strategy of DDS.)

Heh, after reading yseht's posts and this I'd have to agree with you. For being SMT fans they sure complain about the series a lot. I thought I bitched about it a lot, but these guys just... wow.

LOL, I don't even want to click on that link. I've already seen how absurdly elitist some Megaten fans can be. (They're like the videogame equivalent of Star Trek nerds.) Although I do accept that Persona has a new identity now. It still irks moi how people assume that every Persona game played (& was written.) like P3. Why do RPGs always cater to ill-fated metrosexuals now? http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=937269&topic=42728213 Back in the day, Persona would've never been at the forefront of a thread like this. Mainly because no one knew about Persona, lol. That & earlier Persona games tend to be the exact opposite of established rpg cliches. I like how nobody has bothered to con-*test*-('") the points that I've made. (Not when I last checked at least. I'm not going to bother checking up on that thread again, because I only came to that forum to find out if FES came with a soundtrack.) Quote"And since X-Play made an accurate review of Persona 3 in less than three minutes (which is more-than-enough for a game from this series),"Quote LOL, Have you ever played the original 3 Persona games? Be Your True Mind, Innocent Sin, & Eternal Punishment? (Persona 3 is actually the 4rth game.) I'm getting sick & tired of everybody assuming that the former Persona games played like P3. The original games were more Horror/H.P. Lovecraft influenced than anything else. Persona didn't get animued up until Persona 3. Anybody could see that just by looking at the stark contrast in art direction. The original Persona games used an abstract gothic art style. Whereas P3 & P4 use a more streamlined anime aesthetic. Hell, Persona 2 Eternal Punishment in particular made fun of most of the rpg stereotypes that you're complaining about. In a normal RPG Tatsuya Suou would've been treated with respect, since he's a typical angsty rpg hero. However the rest of the Eternal Punishment cast actually laughs & makes fun of him, because he acts childish like a typical RPG hero. There was even one point in the story where the lead female (Maya Amano) slaps Tatsuya in the face. Mainly because she was annoyed with his selfish childishness. I think the main reason why most JRPGs are written the way they are has more to do with the age group of the cast than anything else. You mentioned FF6 as being less stale in characterization than most Jrpgs. Which is true for the most part. Another thing to consider is that the FF6 cast is mostly composed of adults. The cast of Persona 2 Eternal Punishment was also mostly adults. With the youngest adult being 23 yrs. old. The youngest character Tatsuya is 18, and sure enough he acts exactly like every other angst ridden character to have ever graced an rpg. It doesn't really matter though, because he constantly gets ridiculed for his behaviour within his own game. The problem I see is that most Jrpgs are populated with teenagers as the main cast. Who in effect also act like teenagers. Makes sense if you ask me. I agree with most of the points that the topic creator has put forth. It just annoys moi how he feels that he could generalize the entire Persona series, simply because he played Persona 3. A game that has little to no resemblance to it's older brethren. The original Persona games were steeped in occult & Japanese subculture. Persona 3 & any Persona game that came after it is more influenced off of anime & typical RPG cliches. If you want to talk trash about a game. Talk about the title in question, because you obviously haven't played the earlier Persona titles. BTW stop generalizing Japan. I grew up in the Chugoku region. You make way too many unfounded accusations based off of what you may have read or heard from the internet or the Tv media. Most info I've read about Japan are inaccurate at best. I mean damn, I kinda thought Japan was a little too "First person Dungeon crawler" crazed with all its many Wizardry knock offs. Oh but I guess not, because DarksideHazuki84 said otherwise. (Even SMT originated as a Wizardry knock off.) Hell, they still make WIzardry sequels in Japan to this day. The la-*test*-('") knock off that I've seen is "Elminage" which coincidentally has character designs by the main Wizardry artist in Japan. --- t(-_-t) Killer 7 SINdicate:http://www.killer7.3dactionplanet.gamespy.com I was really looking forward to seeing the halfass excuses that the TC would've made after seeing this post. Too bad I just get ignored instead. Another point that I'd like to add... The only reason why Jrpgs are redundant & stale has more to do with the tastes of its community as a whole. Take a look at the Western audience for Manga. Manga in America often gives one the impression that all manga is just animu crap. The reason for this is because the American fanbase only wants what they feel is the most "Japanese". As a result you see a disproportionate amount of "animu" fodder being translated in the States. You rarely if ever see any Freesia, Sky High, or Golgo 13 being translated. The same can be said about Jrpgs. I find that most of the Jrpgs that actually stray from the norm. Usually get stranded in Japan. Mother 3, Linda 3 Project, Far East of Eden, Zill O'll, Taikou Risshiden, King's Field, Shadow Tower Abyss, Sword World, Dark Half, Metal Max, plus the hundreds of First person dungeon crawlers that flood the Japanese market, etc. Even Megaten games used to fall under this category until they decided to implement more Rpg cliches in order to gain more attention with the mainstream. You can't deny that as truth. I never saw this many people (In America) talk about Persona before. It's a sad shame that it wasn't the Persona that was actually original. Persona 3 feels more like a half assed take on Sega's Sakura Taisen games. Just replace Sakura's Tactical Strategic battles with P3's dungeon crawling. Even than, the dating/social interaction component of Sakura Taisen was more fleshed out than the system that's used in P3. --- t(-_-t) Killer 7 SINdicate:http://www.killer7.3dactionplanet.gamespy.com The truth about the topic. This topic has a few different types of people, lets examine them: Elitist-Who somehow think that because a game is older its better or think that they have some god like grasp of story telling and refuse to acknowledge similarities between games they like and games they despise. You could also call them old school fan boys. They often do not realize their favorite games contain a multitude of cliches and so called "emo" drama. They also often over use the word emo, I doubt they have actually ever met an emo because of how they use the term. If you do not agree with their opinion you are either an "emo" or a fanboy. Trolls-Basically, haters with a good grasp of how to say something to get the overreaction they came here for. I have respect for trolls because they provide some amusement/ Fan boys-Who get so butt hurt over a simple opinion they contentiously feed the trolls and elitist by acting childish or trying to prove an opinion. Fan boys overreact to even mild criticism of their favorite characters or game much like the elitist. The Civil-They state their opinions and either leave or stay to defend them when challenged by the other 3 groups. I kinda wonder what group I fall under. Elitist sounds like it could've described moi, but I never used the word Emo in the topic, and the only old games I referenced were the original Persona games. Which were pretty much devoid of common rpg stereotypes if you ask me. I kinda fall under troll, because all I did was diss P3, but yet I did so with civility. I guess I fall under 3 of the 4. I would've never posted in that topic had the TC not lumped all the Persona games with P3. Which was the exact thing that I've been worried about in this entire thread. Persona truly has lost its identity.

Persona 4: The main character has a Goddamn bowl-head.

I still have a soft spot for the Main Character of Persona 3, as he is the first "Silent Mystery" character I've seen that you can make seem like a total goof. During text choices, I always have him say the dumbest, happiest or silliest things. I makes him likable. Also, he actually talks to friends in game (Although you can't see what he says.).