A hello and a question....

Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 6:00 pm

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I've never been a member of a real subculture (I tend not to fit in with mainstream culture, subculture or whatever else. Cultures require a certain degree of conformity that I just don't meet. I mean, I'm not a rebel, I don't try hard like many I know to not fit in and sneer at common culture. I just sort of do what I want and like what I like and try not to bother people. I'm saying all of this because it gives me a sort of disconnect with these games/movies/etc that try to appeal to certain demographics and makes it hard for me to actualize my appreciation for it's accuracy even though I respect it).

Neither am I. I'm about as non conformist as they come. Not that I purposely acknowledge it though. (I just am what I am, and I end up getting singled out most of the time, because I'm one of those people who don't care what others think.)
I too am not a rebel though a lot of people consider me one.
I just see myself as my own man who makes & decides my own decisions. That's all.

One thing I'll say though is that one doesn't live in Japan for quite an extended amount of time, and not get exposed to the subculture there.
One, Japan is ridicoulusy overloaded with conformity that's masqueraded as cool & hip on tv 24/7.
Sure people would draw comparisons to America, but it's so overboard in Japan that it basically parodies itself. (Let alone a console rpg game that spends its time creating a world made specifically to parody modern Japan 1999.)

The blog Gaijin Smash does a pretty good job of trying to convey the ridiculousness of Japan's pop subculture.
http://www.gaijinsmash.net/archives/barking_up_the.phtml
http://www.gaijinsmash.net/archives/top_5_most_hate.phtml
http://www.gaijinsmash.net/archives/top_5_most_hate_2.phtml

Japanese pop subculture is truly something that you just can't ignore if you're living inside the country.
Well theoretically you can. If you're like me than you most likely never watch tv anyway. The problem comes once you start interacting with people in Japan (especially women.) who fit into the demographic that the culture is focused on.
You're bound to get smacked in the head with the rampant craziness if you live in the country long enough.
That gaijin smash blog is a fine example, lol.

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Any ways, P1 and 2's story was very teenage anime in my mind. Better, but anime.

The plot for P2 reads like a sappy Japanese tv drama. I thought it was funny, because the characters even over react the same way as the real live actors do. (Japanese actors can't act for shit. They're always overacting. I hear it's because of the influence of Kabuki, but I don't buy that. Kabuki theater looks & feels nothing like modern contemporary Jdramas.)
P1 reminds me more of one of those Japanese occult teenage high school horror movies from the 90's.
Both forms are pulp entertainment. Real anime to me is that crap that tries to get all moralistic, and act like superior know it alls about their beliefs.
Which pretty much fits the description of P3.

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I am not trying to criticize your love of the games

That's really just hyberbole anyway. As the former host I always said a lot of hyperbolic bullshit to make people feel welcome at this place.
Plus I assumed that you were another one of those megaten noobs at the time.
If you really want to know what game that I just can't get enough of is.
It's Uncharted Waters New Horizons. (I always rant on & on about this game, but nobody seems to know what it is.)
http://www.unchartedwatersnewhorizons.com/
I bet you'd love it too since you actually do have the patience to play through Koei's "real" games.
(I only consider Koei's strategy games as their true games. Their hack n slash titles are just quick cash ins that they purposely half ass, because everybody in Asia purchases the hack n slashs anyway. Regardless of the quality.)

I never actually beat UW though.
Other games that I can't get enough of are Romance of the Three Kingdoms, Nobunaga's Ambition, and the rpgs developed by the troika team.
(Arcanum. Troika was also staffed by the same people who made the first two Fallouts.)
I also love the Ogre games. I was amazed that you actually brought them up to begin with, hah hah. (Like I said earlier in this thread. I'm used to people who have a more simplified taste when it comes to turn based gaming. I hardly ever come across anybody like you. who's actually into the same styles of gaming as I am.)
Thinking about it I also have much love for the Saga games. It's strange that I never noticed. Considering how many times I replayed Saga Frontier, & RS. I've lost count with SF. The main reason I even traded it away in the first place is because I felt that I played it way too much. Only for I to emulate it online three years later, because I felt something was missing in life, and that was Saga Frontier lol. A flawed game, but it sure has a a lot of charm.

What I will admit to is that I actually am greatly influenced by the original Persona games. They were very japanese after all anyway, and even my fashion sense was modeled after the impeccable fashion sensibilities that I saw in the original Persona games.

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I didn't get the same impact from the subculture references for reasons stated above

Most people wouldn't, because the games weren't translated properly.
(Phoenix Wright is an example of a good Americanization that actually translated all the Japanese references properly by replacing them with American references.)
I was actually living in Japan when the P2 games first debuted so I was amazed with how mirror like Persona was to the real life Japan that it was parodying.
The games are told by a japanese teenager's pov, and I was a teen back when the games came out.

So in the end the only reason I'm impacted by all the subculture is because I was actually growing up, & exposed to the same exact culture that the game was poking fun at. I guess it's one of those "had to be there" moments.

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But maybe I'm just a pretentious University graduate who focuses on complex theories and large system/sociological issues so Japanese subculture doesn't amuse me and the only thing that gives me a slimmer of joy is enjoying pretentious stories/essays so I may lord my superiority over others...

LOL, I'm the exact opposite of the same coin. I'm a pretentious asshole who doesn't even have a high school diploma, and I still act as if I can lord over others.

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Or maybe it's because the Japanese are just plain creepy. Razz

That's always a factor. You have to admit P2 does a fine job of replicating the absurdity of real life Japan. (The orignal Persona did too to a certain extent, but it wasn't as noticeable, because that game was set in a random rural small town Japanese suburb. P2 is meant to be Yokohama, or some other Tokyo equivalent.)

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2. Minstrel song was Fantastic, though I've only beaten it twice. I have beaten every quest in the game except beat the jewel beast after he's released (Working on it), defeat the corrupted earth guardian (Working on it) and defeat a 9 fatestone sarauin (working on that too).

I'm not bothering with 9 fatestone Sarauin until my next playthrough.
I still haven't beaten Death & Shirach yet.
I already kicked all the elemental guardian's asses with Claudia's team.
I'm on Gray's game now, and I'm actually starting to like the guy.
I hated him in my other playthroughs, because I was thought he one of those annoying silver haired bishies.
There's this funny convo near the beginning of his game where you get to ditch his teammates.
"Galahad: Do you suppose that he's from Bafal?
Myriam: I don't know. He hardly ever says anything."
____
It cracked me up, because it was so random.

BTW I recently started a game on RS 2, and you were right.
It is one of the best.
What I found amazing about is that it plays exactly like how I envisioned Saga Frontier before I actually bought that game
Every single character in RS 2 is an expendable soldier, and there's an actual story that spans generations.

Most of all the game play is still rock solid. Which was my main gripe with SF2.
I'd love to see Asellus's saga from Saga Frontier be remade using the same story presentation style as RS2.

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As for Grandia the only one I played was 1. It was a long time ago but I remember it being really anime and simplistic gameplay wise. I may be wrong but that is what I remember. You seem to like it though, am I remembering it correctly?

The gameplay was a lot more tactical then you give it credit for.
You had to keep a constant look out on your distance from the opponent, the length of your weapon, and the like.
If you were too far you might not be able to attack the enemy in time before their turn comes up.
You had two basic attacks. Combo & Critical.
Combo attacks let you attack more than once. Critical blows let you stun the opponent. (The enemy will lose his turn if done properly.)
Really there were many variables that went into Grandia's battles that made it a blast to play.

While animiesh it was still a game that focused more on adventure, & exploring rather than mopey animu melodrama that plagues the rest of the series.
I would compare Grandia more to a children's cartoon like Dragonball (THe original with the lil' kid.), or Pokemon.
It's just a series of adventures that your protagonist gets tangled up in.
I can deal with animu like that. Now games like Xenogears or the current Megatens is where I draw the line. I can't stand philosophical anime, nor games that model themselves after them.
Well it depends. I thought that Jin Roh was good, because it understood the military mindset of some splinter sects quite well. Then again Jin Roh was originally planned to be a live action movie rather than an anime which could attest as to why it actually had good writing.

Now Grandia was never in the same league as the Saga games, but I do see them as a healthy alternative when compared to the rest of the Jrpg dreck that tries to pass themselves as rpgs.
If only for its battle system.

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I'll take a look into the new ambition game.

There's a new Nobunaga's Ambition coming out in September.
http://www.gamecity.ne.jp/tendou/
I can't wait!

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I've been playing a lot of KUF lately (Actually just finished Heroes tonight. Such a long game.... Probably 45-60 hours minimum...) and hard at places to. Difficulty was really scaled up from Crusaders.

I found Morene's later levels to be some of the hardest in the game. Still fun though.

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I mean, the reason why I liked Nocturne was that I felt they actually planned the game out and thought about how everything interacted at every point in the game to make an interesting game. That's very rare in RPG's both now and in the past, a heavy degree of planning and thought and I respected Nocturne for it...

I would love to counter argument using a PC rpg as an example, but I really can't think of any.
Temple of Elemental Evil is the only semi recent one that comes to mind, and that game came out around the same time as Nocturne.
It is indeed rare. Which is why I spend most of time replaying the classics of the past, because the newer games just don't stimulate my mind like they used to. The only recent (non 2D fighting game.) game I'm into is Call of Duty Modern Warfare. Which is just a typical FPS, but it's well designed, and quite visceral.

I think part of the problem is that RPGs as a genre have an immense identity crisis. Modern RPGs try way too hard to be some kind of multimedia adventure gaming experience when initially the only thing that rpgs have ever traditionally focused on were battles, & stats that affect your every action.
Rpgs are supposed to play like one long survival mode stage where you do your best to manage, & plan out your actions in order to navigate your way through the game.
Every step you take could be your last, and I mean that literally, because you actually had to create new characters if you wanted to continue on with your game after your party died. (The Wizardry games come to mind.)

Nocturne is the last example of a RPG that follows this rule of thought, and ironically it's these grueling, & unforgiving (to those who refuse to think about their actions.) aspects of Nocturne that get criticized most.
The traits of Nocturne that make it feel like a true RPG experience.
(Arcanum, Unlimited Saga & Fallout are also good examples of implementing rpg gameplay into a videogame based Rpg game. Especially Unlimited Saga.)

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A very Marvel vs Capcom 2 approach to game design, using a fighting game reference.

An apt reference if I say so myself, because MvsC is the classic case example of Animu fighting games.
I hate those types of Fighting games, because they reward you more for button mashing rather than carefully planned, & executed strategizing.

Though imo I feel that the Soul Caliburs are more harmful, because many people out there actually believe that SC is a hardcore fighting game.
(When really it too is also just a button masher. I don't even bother to learn the play mechanics. I just press buttons with SC3.)

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As for other Nippon Iichi games I haven't played them and should honestly give them a fair chance. I dunno, perhaps I've just been afraid of catching the weaboo.

The mana Khemia games are exceptionally well designed in terms of play mechanics, but uh the Animuness of the game can be quite a huge turn off.
I think what really won me over are the battle bgms. For such a cutesy animu game. It's strange how it actually uses metal for its battle themes.
Mana Khemia 2 Battle/Boss themes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1QaXnvPZrE
The metal isn't anywhere near as thrashy as Kingdom Under Fire, or as fast as Guilty Gear. MK's metal sounds more like progressive rock. (Similar to that of the rock themes from the original Valkyrie Profile.)

One note if I may Mana Khemia actually gets hated on by the Animu crowd, because the MK games barely have a story.
It's all just gameplay which is rare to see in a rpg now in days.
I never bothered with Disgaea myself, because I got bored after the first stage.
I should note that when I refer to Nippon Ichi rpgs, I'm actually talking about RPGs that are developed by Gust (Atellier Iris, Mana Khemia, Ar Tonelico, etc.), and are only published by Nippon Ichi.
I never actually played a RPG by gust that I would consider bad. (So long as you could get past the Nippon Ichi animu overcoat of the games.)

While not exactly my typical cup of tea. I'm hungry, and I'll take what I can get.

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As for Wizardry Summoner, is there a translation?

No, I wish there was. Like I said in my video there was an attempted translation by Natsume, but they canned it before retail release.
It was canned, because Natsume received a lot of bad reviews about their beta copies of wizardry.
Really it's just a classic case of imbecile reviewers who know nothing about RPG's making the choices of what's consumable to the western market for the rest of us.

Till this I can not fucking understand why Wizardry seems to be much more popular, & respected in Japan than it is in the West.
I'm still tracking down for a beta copy of the english version.
BTW have you played Wizardry on the PS2 that was published by Atlus awhile back?
Was it any good? I'm just hungry for some real RPG gameplay so I'm pretty much trying to track down any game that I may have missed out on.

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I prefer to deal with people in person where people are more civil, you can have longer discussions, and where you can kick someone in the balls if they piss you off.

Exactly. The problem with the net is that people can say whatever they want without any consequences.
It annoys me, because I'm used to everybody speaking to me with a lot of respect in real life.
So I'm not used to dealing with people online who just act like "asshats".
IRL I actually would just kick their ass if I ever did come into contact with someone who foolishly conducts their selves like that.

Another thing that I hate about internet is that it usually takes me an hour or two to articulate what I want to say online when it would only take me three minutes to say what I have to say in real life.

If you notice most of the people who have a problem with me on the internet are annoyed by I, because of my opinions.
So they try their hardest to prove I wrong when all I do is state my opinion.
Not only that my opinions are usually supported with an explanation of the core logic that I used to come to the opinionated stances that I've reached.
Trying to tell me that I'm wrong is the wrong way to approach me.
You must first convince me that I'm wrong with an irrefutable argument.
Most people who start shit with me merely shout out that you're wrong without stating logical reasons as to why.
It all boils down to an emotional "Change your opinion, because your opinions insult me, and belittle my religion."

I don't give a fuck about such stances. These people need to learn to control their emotions, and to try not to let their religions control their life.
It's not my problem that they're so easily offended, because I present a opinion that is different to theirs.

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http://www.oldgames.sk/en/

Old games, hundreds of them. And the ones I have downloaded so far have been properly formatted with dosbox to work right away. It's a pretty awesome site.

Ace site man. I see a lot of classics. (For both PC & Consoles.)
Too bad I've no time for that now since I'm finally getting around to Unlimited Saga. (I just re bought it again yesterday, because I need my SaGa fix.)

BTW have you gotten around to playing the nameless mod for Deus Ex?
I tried it out, and one thing that really stands out is the music.

Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 4:13 am

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I quite like the Persona games (Persona 1 does have a place in my heart) and I am not trying to criticize your love of the games but I didn't get the same impact from the subculture references for reasons stated above and thematically there are other games that tackle many of it's issues better. For example for "conspiracy theories, Japanese politics, & conformity." There's Killer 7 and Deus Ex 1/2.

How do you suppose that I worked my way up to K7 & Deus Ex to begin with?
The original Persona was the first game that I ever played that actually caused me to think. (about its surrealism, abstract style, & plot.)
So to speak it was Persona that initially opened the doors for me that led I to greener pastures that I never embarked on before. (Nor was I even aware of. Prior to Persona.)
Sure there were other titles that had small set pieces with messages worth further exploring such as the latter half of Final Fantasy VI (Mainly Tina's adoption of orphans, and that other girls attempted suicide.), but it was Persona that first introduced me to an entire plot that was mostly centered around one theme, and pulled it off quite well.

That theme was "persona".
The point of persona games is that they're centered around a small cast of characters who all have dysfunctional personalities, or issues that need to be resolved.
The reason why they can even cast Personae in the first place is because they all have fractured minds, paranoia, or personality disorders.
(Ulala, & Katsuya have an inferiority complex. Baofu is Anti Social. Maya & Ellen have paranoia. Tatsuya thinks too highly of himself. He's over confident yet he lacks logical sense. Which is typical of a teen. Etc.)
This is the main thing that P3 & P4 seem to forget. There's nothing heroic ,or saint like about being a Persona user at all. All it means is that you're as fucked up in the head as the Killer 7.
The Personae that you have dwelling inside of you are actually personal demons that need to be quelled in order to move on with life.
(SHit, It never occurred to I just how similar Persona used to be to the main theme of Suda 51's original trilogy of games. "Killing the past.")

This is the reason why you often see murderers in Persona games who also know how to use Persona. (All persona users have mental disorders.)
Each persona is just another "personality" dwelling inside of the Persona user.
The events that unfold in the games happen, because they are used as a means to pressure the cast into erasing certain mental mannerisms that do nothing but hinder their progress.
The original Persona games ended once each unwanted piece of their personality is eliminated one by one until their fractured minds become whole. To the point where they don't even need to use their Persona anymore. (There's no need to fight if you're already satisfied with your life.)

Ex. Nate lost his arrogance after being traumatized by his butler's death. Nate/Nanjo lost the only person who actually cared for him.
He became humbled after knowing what true loneliness feels like.
As a result of that he became a nicer, more polite individual after living through the original Persona game.
If you pay close attention to the character development you'll notice that every single returning character from the original Persona actually made peace & became whole with their selves.

In Persona 2, Reiji is no longer a loner (He's friends with Taro. Who's no longer a nerd.), Maki is no longer meek, Elly is no longer over confident, Nanjo is no longer rude & arrogant, Yuki is not as butch, Brad is still a useless ass, but he has a successful career as some tv personality.
They all overcame their mental deficiencies during the first game.
It was interesting seeing how these characters grew up into adults.
__________ Conclusion:

Admittedly, as an adult the Persona games wouldn't interest me much, because I'm already acquainted with the subjects that it brings up, but at the least...
The Persona games never became self indulgent like the Metal Gear Solid series which likes to pretend that it's the first, or only entity in the world that brings up such subjects.
Luckily I experienced the Persona games as a teen, and it was those games that paved me on to the path that I now live on to this day.
On a constant search for other experiences that boggle the mind as much as Persona initially did when I first played the games a decade ago.
Persona made pseudo philosophy, & psychological study look cool, and "cool" is often the quality that's best to implement when you're trying to influence kids.
They sure influenced me, hah hah. I don't even want to think about how I would've turned out had I never experienced the Persona games as a teen. I'd probably would've been just a run of the mill thug, instead of one with an actual functioning mind.

That's my case about the influence that the Persona games had on me. Honestly when it comes to Jrpgs I actually prefer the SaGa series much more.
(Considering how many times I've replayed Saga Frontier. Minstrel Song will eventually catch up once that game becomes a decade old like SF.)
I've only replayed each megaten game only once, or twice. The original Persona, was the only one I replayed over 5 times. If only because it was the only megaten that I was exposed to at the time. (That and it's also the one with the most complex battle system. Formations actually matter in that game.)
I've also beaten Nocturne at least three times, but that's because I played each version of Nocturne at least once. (Except the new one that's just a reprint that replaces Dante with Kuzunoha Raido. Belch, I'd rather have Dante he at least has a "dark" look to him.)

The problem I have with megaten games is that I feel that most of them are way too long, and while the gameplay is pretty well designed for the most part.
They just don't engage me as much as a good round of Romance of the Three Kingdoms or Romancing Saga would. (I love both Romance series of games for their randomness.)

Interesting note: When I first completed Deus Ex I actually exclaimed "Finally! I've experienced a game with a deeper plot than Xenogears, & MGS 2."
While the statement is true. I just find it hilarious that I ever held those two games in the same regard as DX to begin with.
While one can make a solid case for MGS2 as post modern satire much similar to K7 which was also political post modernist satire.
XG was just pure bullshit that even shamelessly ripped off known plot twists from movies. (Namely, soylent green.)
I just find it comical how a lot of the stuff that we think is deep as a kid.
Only comes off as complex, because it's hard to understand.

They're hard to understand simply, because they're horribly written.
MGS 2 can get a pass, because it was somewhat surreal. (The dialogue is still some of the worst shit I've heard though, and that's that.)
XG on the other hand relied on empty symbolism. (Such as the attempted allusions to mother mary and the like.)

At least when I look back at Persona it still comes off as pretty deep to me when you look at the titles as individual character archetype studies.
I don't get embarrassed about the PSone Persona games like I do with Xenogears, and the MGS series. (While an argument can be made for MGS2, there's no excuse for the lulz fest known as MGS4.)
Another plus is that the dialogue of the original persona games are still just as witty, and hilarious as I remember them to be.
Though it should be noted that persona's comic wit is actually one of the only traits of Persona that are still intact in P3, and I assume P4 as well.

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The bad games keep them afloat, lets hope they make some good ones as side projects and we can at least benefit from this. Better than the company going down...

That's one of those "When pigs fly!" moments for I.
I'll believe it when I see it, and so far I have no reason to believe that Atlus still has it.
Koei is another company that employs a similar tactic. The difference is that the Warriors games actually make Koei a ton of money, and they usually churn out their good games side by side.
Atlus used to make a ton of interesting games, but now in days they (The Japanese division.) look like a wannabe Nippon ichi.
I actually prefer the American Atlus now, because they at least localize some good games from time to time. (The Dark Spire.)

I actually think that Cozy Okada really was the brains of Atlus R&D.
(I saw your argument with that Sack guy way back so I'm familiar with your stance on Okada.)
Cozy Okada constantly makes games with interesting concepts & storylines. (Kartia)
The thing about Okada is that most of his games that he's made ever since leaving atlus have mostly looked & played like SMT lite.
Even his cellphone game resembles SMT.
http://mobcast.jp/mobgame/iageha/
That game looks like old school megaten right there. It even has the butterflies from the original Persona series.
It's no coincidence, because Okada made this game.
It's too bad that his games just don't look as convincingly eerie as they should be without Kaneko's gothic cyberpunkish artwork.

I pretty much compare the team of Okada, Kaneko, & Satomi as the Japanese equivalent of
Tim Cain, Leonard Boyarsky & Jason Anderson = Fallout
These guys have made the best blend of P&P rpg mechanics translated into computer games ever.
Just look at Tim's resume.
Fallout, Fallout 2, Arcanum, Temple of Elemental Evil, Vampire Masquerade.

Granted Nocturne was really the only game that Kaneko & Okada worked on that I would recommend to everybody. (Oh and Spiral Nemesis, & Soul Hackers as well had they ever been translated into English.)
The problem with Megaten is accessibility. Many people would be turned off by the original Persona, because of it's lack of save points. (The remake would turn them off even more, because it's frikkin animay.)

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5. I beat Disgea. Wasn't a fan. I mean besides the anime bullshit the game had a lot of "gameplay" but I found it clusterfucked. It felt like they threw a bunch of gameplay ideas together without a lot of thought because it looked kinda cool and thus things don't work properly.

Another thing I'd like to add is that Disgaea was pretty much the embodiment of what I hate about strategy rpg games. They require no strategy at all. It's all just power leveling. This is why I prefer games that actually have a level cap. It's easier for the game designers to prevent you from breaking the game.

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As for Wizardry Summoner, is there a translation?

No, I wish there was. Like I said in my video there was an attempted translation by Natsume, but they canned it before retail release.
It was canned, because Natsume received a lot of bad reviews about their beta copies of wizardry.
Really it's just a classic case of imbecile reviewers who know nothing about RPG's making the choices of what's consumable to the western market for the rest of us.

To add to what I already said here's the cover art of Natsume's attempted translation.

Damn I want to say that it looks good, but I've already played it.
I know from experience that the game is good.

All you need is blood Joined: 17 Feb 2008 Posts: 25

Just posting to say I am alive... ish. Past few months have been hell. I'll try to get a full response up soonish. Til then...

Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:29 pm

SMT IV RULZ!!!!!!

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I'm now a believer. Atlus can do whatever the hell they want with the spin offs, so long as they keep on delivering with the vanilla SMTS.

BTW, I'm shocked to say this, but Devil Survivor is actually good.
(So long as you ignore the intros, and the art style.)
Well, I don't know if you'll enjoy Devil Survivor, but I sure got a kick out of it, because it felt like a tribute to the original Devil Summoners, & Persona games. Even the plot seems similar. (Replace the word Persona, with comp, and you basically have the same story as the original Persona from what I played at least.)
Just think of Devil Survivor as a Mugenized SMT IF game using random animu fanart that they found on the internet. If that's not enough, then the remixed Soul Hackers joints will.
(The SH music is what did it for I at least, lol. Damn nostalgia. It's the first time that it ever worked on me.)

I'd love to rant on, & on to you about how GODLY SMT IV is, but I'll let you find out for yourself.
It's already thy top Megaten game imo. (Knocking Spiral Nemesis out of my top 3.)
SMT IV is better than Soul Hackers, but I'm still deliberating on whether or not it's better than Nocturne. I say it is, but I could also just be blinded by the fact that this SMT is actually good.

All you need is blood Joined: 17 Feb 2008 Posts: 25

Hey, sorry about the delay. Been busy but lets get something at least quick out.

On the Megaten front, how things have been going for me.

Played through Devil Survivor twice. Gotta agree, actually a good game. Bad art design, too much anime melodrama but the game has solid gameplay mechanics, multiple paths (And pulls no punches on being blasphemous and the like. I got very happy when Nayoa said "Do you think God is just?" Brings me back). I think of the game as a nod to the old Megaten games, MT2 and SMT1-2. The whole war between evil and chaos, and the music which I loved, is VERY Megami Tensei 2. That very alternative hard rock. Makes me very happy.

FINALLY got around to beating SMT: IF. I got to the last boss and the game wiped my data. Hadn't had the heart to work at it again. Finally did it though.

Not only that but finally getting around to beating Soulhackers. I got to the Algon factory but got sidetracked. Started playing again though and am currently working my way through the last level. Probably will finish it sometime this week.

I'm looking forward to strange journey. Kaneko has been unfired (Mind you, bit TOO sci-fi for me, I'm cyberpunk to the core but still quite good), first person looks good. Need to know more gameplay mechanics (Care to fill me in? Formations, dual combat, alignment, negotiations, fusion. ETC. I really need to do a search.)

I gotta disagree with you on one point though, the music. It's not bad but I can't get into it. It just doesn't get me moving. I really liked the metal/techno/rock beats of megaten battle music. Gothic or foreboding works for walking around and cutscenes but when you're fighting, It's all about the fast tracks. I mean, in megaten you're apocalyptic road warriors fighting demons with guns and sword and such. Sounds like the stuff metal songs are made of. I like my battle music to get my pulse pumping, but that's just me. (I would have also settled for deSPIRIA-esque music as that feels like it'd fit very well with Strange Journey.

I gotta give you a heads up, chances are I'll probably like the game less than you. I saw the trailers and while it looks like a good Megaten game I don't think it'll unseat the masters. Maybe I'm just guessing here, I need to find data on gameplay mechanics and such to really evaluate. I hope that it will be the best thing ever but my moneys definitely on good megaten game (Which is a very high pedestal by itself I must admit). Here's hoping it gets released here soon. I'm VERY much looking forward to it.

PS: I think I saw you posting on gamefaqs. If you want to take a look I responded as King of Dusk.

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:00 pm

Damn it I really hate firefox sometimes. I had this longass post written up, and the damn pos crashed on me all of a sudden.
Well I'll try to remember what I originally wrote.
_______________
LOL you saw my thread that I started at gamefags? I think it was the biggest thread there last I checked.
I was just trolling around. I hardly ever follow up on any posts that I make at gf. So if I haven't replied to you yet, then I most likely never will.
I have a tendency on gamefaqs to post contrarian views just to get a rise out of random people. (Ex. When I referenced certain events in the original SMT out of context just to make it sound dumber than it actually was. I do have a point though. SMT III doesn't really anything that sounds nearly as stupid in comparison.)

Quote:

Played through Devil Survivor twice. Gotta agree, actually a good game. Bad art design, too much anime melodrama but the game has solid gameplay mechanics, multiple paths (And pulls no punches on being blasphemous and the like. I got very happy when Nayoa said "Do you think God is just?" Brings me back). I think of the game as a nod to the old Megaten games, MT2 and SMT1-2. The whole war between evil and chaos, and the music which I loved, is VERY Megami Tensei 2. That very alternative hard rock. Makes me very happy.

Maybe it's just me, but for some reason Devil Survivor reminds me Growlanser 2. Even the overworld navigation is the same. (You point & click through a series of menus.)

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'm looking forward to strange journey. Kaneko has been unfired (Mind you, bit TOO sci-fi for me, I'm cyberpunk to the core but still quite good), first person looks good. Need to know more gameplay mechanics (Care to fill me in? Formations, dual combat, alignment, negotiations, fusion. ETC. I really need to do a search.)

From what I experienced, formations basically paly the same role as in SMT III. (There are none.) Don't expect the battle engine to be as tactical as the original Persona either, or Soul Hackers even. (You can only summon three demons at a time in SMT IV.)
I'm looking forward to see how alignment fairs myself.
I barely even played past the first dungeon, because the rom keeps blacking out on me, lol.
Yup that's right I've been playing a rom all along, LOL.
At least I'm consistent. I swore that I would never purchase another megaten again. Though I will pick up a copy of SMT IV once it gets localized. As well as a copy of Devil Survivor if only to support it. (I'd rather that we get more Survivors over lame Raido, & Persona.)

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I gotta disagree with you on one point though, the music. It's not bad but I can't get into it. It just doesn't get me moving. I really liked the metal/techno/rock beats of megaten battle music. Gothic or foreboding works for walking around and cutscenes but when you're fighting, It's all about the fast tracks.

In general metal does get the job done most of the time. I feel that it's out of place in Rpgs, since you're supposed to actually stop, & think in Rpgs.
Rock works best in action game where you're pretty much thinking about your next move as you go along. (Nu-metal/techno in DMC3, Progressive rock in Dynasty Warriors 4.)
My main problem with Megaten Battle bgm is that the music sounds too good. Battle bgm shouldn't be music that makes you want to dance or headbang. Battle bgm should elicit the emotions, & methodology of the wear, & tear of battle. Battle music in rpgs should be an extension of the ambiance of the dungeon.
When you're out on deployment in the battlefield. You don't hear techno or rock. The music that's usually played in the background of real life battlefields are the repetitive sounds of the drums of war, & the hymns of battle.
This is the type of sound that battle bgm should reflect.
(Although I pretty much defeated my own point, because if I recall rock actually was used as war deployment music during the nam I think.)

Yes, I do believe that battle bgm should be somewhat repetitive. The goal of the song should make you want to end the battle as quick as you can. Not extend it. Doing so just lessens the tension, and this is where megaten usually falls short in the music department. I don't want to feel like I'm inside a rave, or a concert. I want it to sound as if I'm in a battle to the death.

As much as I hate Shadowhearts. If there's one thing that SH does better than any other Jrpg out there. It has to be the music.
The battle bgm in SH is intense, and I find it a shame that it's wasted on a game that tries too hard to be mature, & animu at the same time.

War drums: Shadow Hearts Covenant - Hardcore to the Brain
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irGCdR0rTM4
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War chants: RPG Battle Themes #67 Shadow Hearts Covenant
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seFe8nxig70
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I love the beautiful chants in the background as if you're slaying your enemies, and sending them straight to heaven. Or which ever make believe adult playground that they have faith in.

Shadow Hearts Covenant - Ladder to Heaven (Battle vs Amon)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Es1uNda4p8o
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This song is so intense, and repetitively annoying that I feel it does the best job of conveying what a battle bgm should sound like.

The only time that I really want to hear guitars in a RPG battle theme is whenever the song is going for a melodramatic soft rock vibe.
Shadow Hearts Covenant - The Fate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kr5mloai1B0
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(This is probably one of the most beautiful, dramatic sounding songs that I ever heard in a videogame.)
Which again is another sound that Shadow Hearts excels at.
I wish there was a way to get this guy to make the osts for Megaten.
His battle music is amazing.

The only RPG that I ever seen that did a phenomenal job with Metal is the original Valkyrie Profile. I still hum the progressive synth rock from VP inside my head, because that's how unique the metal tunes were in VP.
While the music in megaten is always good. (Except the bullshit Raido games, lol.)
The music itself comes off as fairly generic. Only the original Persona, & P2 IS/P2 EP seem to have soundtracks that stand out on their own.
Although I also liked the music in Spiral Nemesis. (My favorite ost actually) Which was somewhat a cross in between the original hard rock SMT style, and the more ambient techno/trip hop influenced Persona.

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I mean, in megaten you're apocalyptic road warriors fighting demons with guns and sword and such. Sounds like the stuff metal songs are made of

LOL, true, but that's not always the case. Urotsukidoji has basically the same setting as the orginal SMT games, and to tell you the truth.
I felt that Urotsukidoji's use of orchestrated music was a nice change of pace from the usaul affair that deals with demons. (Which usually revolves around the use of Heavy metal.)

Thinking of which I think that was my problem with Nocturne's soundtrack.
While the techno rock tunes were catchy. They just weren't "metal" enough for my tastes. When I think of metal. As in hardcore heavy metal. I want to hear some insanely fast drumming, & some crazy ass guitar solos like Kingdom Under Fire, now that's a game that gets metal done right.
Nocturne sounds way too damn mellow in comparison. It pretty much sounds like only one guy (Meguro) worked on the battle bgm for Nocturne using a lone guitar, and a keyboard.
Which is why metal sounds much better when it's performed by an actual band.

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(I would have also settled for deSPIRIA-esque music as that feels like it'd fit very well with Strange Journey.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGwOxTyHPFk
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I agree with you there. Despiria's music sounds like an acid trip.
I use similar eerie electronica in my rpg maker game, lol.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghIaEZAa7t8
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Fast forward to 1:25 to hear the battle music.
For some reason I get a lot of praise, & messages for this game, but it doesn't reflect in the ratings, lol. I do have a lot of haters on youtube though who constantly send me death threats for some reason, because I'm an "uglyass chinese bitch" (That's the actual paraphrasing.) Even though I look Latin. Blind ass mothafuckas, heh. (I actually am EurAsian, but I don't see what the problem is. I look like a Latino, and I sound Black, lol.)

Do you have any idea where I can attain Despiria's music? Or a way to rip the bgm? I want to use it for my Citdel de Laputa game, hah hah. (It's just some retro surrealistic mindfuck amiga style adventure rpg hybrid. The narrative is a blend between David Lynch surrealism, and bastardrized pseudo Greek mythology.)
Where did you get DesPiria anyway. That game definitely looks right up my alley. I can't believe that it was made by Atlus, because it looks even darker than SMT. Despiria's artstyle reminds me of Hell Night/Dark Messiah.
I'm pretty much into anything that looks like some surrealist LSD mind trip.

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I gotta give you a heads up, chances are I'll probably like the game less than you. I saw the trailers and while it looks like a good Megaten game I don't think it'll unseat the masters. Maybe I'm just guessing here, I need to find data on gameplay mechanics and such to really evaluate. I hope that it will be the best thing ever but my moneys definitely on good megaten game (Which is a very high pedestal by itself I must admit).

To tell you the truth. SMT IV was just a faze for me. I think I was more impressed with SMT IV actually being a good game than anything else.
It was good enough to the point that it made me want to try out Devil Survivor which was also good due to DS's Growlanser inspired play mechanics.

The best part of SMT IV from what I played is the atmosphere. It genuinely feels like you;re inside an episode of battlestar galatica.
These days when it comes to dungeon crawling. I find myself far more gravitated toward the likes of King's Field, Shadow Tower, & Demon's Souls than I am with megaten.

All you need is blood Joined: 17 Feb 2008 Posts: 25

1. Well, if you wanna see what I said on gamefaqs you can always check. I saw this big post and started reading it and was like... whoa, is that TopDrunkee, sounds just like him You can see me bitching about these new school megaten games. It's is true that old megaten games borrow so heavily from old japanese occult mags that they haev some dumb stuff. That's one of the reasons I do love Nocturne so much. It was so pure in it's theme and in it's story. Almost no stupid bullshit (Save Dante, ugh).

2. Never played Growlanser 2. Have 1 but couldn't get into it. Didn't like this quasi turn based/real time mechanic. Like the classic strategy battle style. Which is a shame. I really like Langrisser a lot. I miss it. (Loved Der Langrisser. 4 woulda been awesome if judgement phase wasn't messed up.)

3. Always good to support megaten games. I am sad that 4 doesn't have press turns. I love press turns to death. I know it's being used a lot now, but it's so good (And everytime they modify it they make it worse. Persona 3 for example)

4. On the RPG music note, to be fair on the whole metal/rock note Megaten battles are brutally fast (one thing I wasn't big on in Devil Summoner/Soul Hackers. Very slow.). Boss battles can easily be over 2-3 rounds for either side and battle usually go down in 1-2 very quick rounds where lots of things die. I felt the music really captured that energy. Ambiance works for the dungeons I agree, but the battles, I dunno. Just didn't work for me. To each their own though, we each have our own tastes. (Though I gotta agree with you that Majin Tensei 2's music is fantastic. One of my favorites, got it on right now because you reminded me of. But then Majin Tensei 2 is amazing in basically every way. It's absolutely amazing. Need more strat RPG's like that)

5. Shadowhearts games could be good, but god damn it I hate the judgement ring may it burn in hell forever. Can't argue with it, LOVE the music (Especially the first games battle theme and the final boss theme). Though the first one had the best and the third one lacked a lot of good tracks (Though the intro music is A+). I don't want him for Megaten I must admit but I do think he's great. I think SMT has a different feel. The music both needs to grasp the techno and the sad and philosophical aspects. Actually one of my favorite megaten tracks ever is the music for Hell in SMT2. It feels so, right for capturing the feeling of hell. It's so sad, so, tragic. It's a personal favorite. It moves me and that's rather rare.

Valkyrie Profile has very good music to it as well. As I call it "Some of the best 16 bit music ever" (Has a very Snes feel). As for Raidou, the first one has a few tracks I like but the second one has nothing that I like. Meguro needs to go (And if Devil Survivor is any indication they can do quite well without him)

Nocturne. I like it's music, gotta say. Has many, many tracks I love (What can I say, the game has my heart)

And KUF rocks, but I think we've been over that Smile

Seriously, can't wait for 2.

Though honestly you're more into the techno beats thing than me it seems. I'm very picky about my techno. But I have heard a lot of great techno.

6. Very interesting game, I'm curious. Though the music is not my style I must admit, but not that's there's anything wrong with it. It's just a matter of personal preference.

7. Ah deSPIRIA... such an amazing game. I mean, couldn't understand a lick of it but it captured my heart. I'll never see a translation for it which makes me sad. You should definitely play it. I got is on ebay (I dislike roming, especially for great games. But a necessity sometimes with some games since they're hard to get.)

For the soundtrack, coincidentally enough I liked it so much I spent hours and working through multiple programs and managed to rip the soundtrack. I could send it to you, though the tracks are VERY short tracks, like 15-30 secs and are on repeat. Was surprised, never really noticed it in game.

As for the game, I found a torrent for it but if you can't find that I have the cdi on my hard drive. Though I don't know how I'd get a 700mb file to you.

As for the game, I think it was made by another company and published by Atlus. I know they did an adventure game before. Dunno which one it was.

On the music note, here's the one I like a lot. (There's another one but it is not in any videos. End of game boss music)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENXu-bsL2Uc&feature=related

3:48

8. As for SMT 4, you always seem to back down when I confront you on something gaming related. if you like it you like it, my opinion isn't worth anything. Razz

I look forward to it. I still love Megaten. I mean, Demons Soul looks SO good (Damn it, I don't own a PS3) but I still love my megaten. I'm having the problem of running out of games. After I beat Soul Hackers I'll have beaten every megaten game except Megami Tensei 1, Persona 4, P3Fes, And the new Devil Summoner games. I'm almost out, it's so sad. They need to release good ones faster!

Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 1:01 pm

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Like the classic strategy battle style. Which is a shame. I really like Langrisser a lot. I miss it. (Loved Der Langrisser. 4 woulda been awesome if judgement phase wasn't messed up.)

Well in general the Growlansers don't impress me that much, but GL 2 is generally better than 3 & that other one that Atlus localized awhile back.
Survivor itself seems to be made by the same exact team who made GL2, and I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out that they did. (The menu navigation is way too similar to be a coincidence.)
I agree that Langrisser is light years better. I first played the series as Warsong back in the genesis. What sucked for me is that the save battery would never work so I always had to play the game from the very beginning.
I was disappointed as hell when I bought Working Design's Growlanser 2 & 3 collection, because I expected it to play like Der Langrisser 2.
However the games aren't that bad once you get over that it plays nothing like Langrisser.
On the plus side, GL games are much better than the Personas, lol.

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4. On the RPG music note, to be fair on the whole metal/rock note Megaten battles are brutally fast (one thing I wasn't big on in Devil Summoner/Soul Hackers. Very slow.).

Ah come on. You didn't like Naomi's battle theme? That's one of the most epic metal themes out of the entire franchise. It's mid tempo, but when you hear her theme come on. You just know that the person you're playing as is going to be a hardcore badass. (In fact Naomi is so badass that she breaks the game, lol.)
It's just unfortunate that you only get to play as her for one immensely short VQ.
Although it's only short, because she kicks so much ass.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iM4IlZw4vWw
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I uploaded her entire chapter, because she's one of my favorite characters out of the entire Megaten universe. (Who is she anyway? I never did beat the game. I'd assume that Naomi is actually Nemissa or at least the genetic code, but you see Nemissa's true demon form during the ending. Nemissa's true form looks nothing like Naomi.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECcwv7ZJPJo
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4-3rXWRRYw
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I thought Soul Hackers had some pretty decent metal tunes. I like the main boss song once it finally starts up.
What I hated was the bullshit main battle theme. SH has to have the worst battle theme out of the entire megaten franchise. (And here I thought P2 EP had a boring main battle song.) Even the Raido games have battle themes that kick the shit out of SH's miserable excuse of normal battle bgm.
It sure doesn't help that SH gets you pumped up with a remix of the normal battle theme from the original SMT. Only to find out that only that wuss Urabe gets to fight to that song.

As for what I look for in metal.
This (It's by the band who made the ost for Kingom Under Fire Heroes)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys8NLDSbWr4
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That is some EPIC DRUMMING man. I really like the part that starts at :40 & ends at :51. Pure symphonic.

BTW you're right the original SMT games had some fast hardcore metal. I always forget though, because I first heard most of those songs as remixes in the original Persona. So in my mind I always think of those themes as Persona songs instead of SMT themes.

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Though the music is not my style I must admit, but not that's there's anything wrong with it. It's just a matter of personal preference.

Actually I agree. It's a bit too dance clubby. (It reminds me of P2 IS.)
It's just a fierce battle boss theme anyway. It's a song that's always preceded by the acid techno metal "Tense" theme that you hear briefly before a boss fight.
The main battle song I'm using has more of a quasi orchestral/techno sound to it. It samples Beethoven's symphony No.5.
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=S381GGWF

The other main battle theme is from Okage.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcqS1EdRhs0
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I'm going with that cut, because it sounds low key, yet it has a tense & tribal ferociousness vibe to it at the same time.

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For the soundtrack, coincidentally enough I liked it so much I spent hours and working through multiple programs and managed to rip the soundtrack. I could send it to you, though the tracks are VERY short tracks, like 15-30 secs and are on repeat. Was surprised, never really noticed it in game.

Sure. I'd love to hear more of it. I love the abstract trip hop feel that I'm getting from the music.

Quote:

As for the game, I found a torrent for it but if you can't find that I have the cdi on my hard drive. Though I don't know how I'd get a 700mb file to you.

I dl'ed the rom ages ago from snesorama, but It wouldn't work on the Saturn emulator that I was using.
I just pondered where you got Despiria, because it seems like you have an actual physical copy of the game.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENXu-bsL2Uc&feature=related

3:48

I like the basic tribal fierceness, of the first battle song.
The more elgant gothic like song at 3:48 reminds me of this industrial band called Schwarz Stein.

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8. As for SMT 4, you always seem to back down when I confront you on something gaming related. if you like it you like it, my opinion isn't worth anything. Razz

I don't see myself as backing down. It's more like you're knocking me back to reality while I'm sitting here on cloud 9 being impressed that there's an actual new megaten that isn't animu bullshit.

Suffice to say. I completely forgot about Megaten's formations.
So I went back to play Soul Hackers, and I was like damn.
Formations actually play a huge role of the strategy in the game. (Although not to the extent of the original Persona, but then again what else does.)
One thing I noticed is that characters on the front row have a tendency to act faster than people in the back row. Which is quite troublesome if all of your healers are located in the back. So I had to make sure that I had at least one front row tank who knew a group heal spell just in case.

Hell, I had the hardest time against Samyaza at Algon Soft, because I couldn't rely on my Nemissa "Kll them all in a hail of fire" tactics, because he's immune to fire.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQUjJ2j4WVI
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvA7pZ6LO_I
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(It took me two years to finally beat this guy!)
My Nemissa was forced to sit in the back row, and act as a support character for that fight. Which is troublesome for me, because my main character sucks. He can kill practically everything in one hit. The problem is that his agility is so low that everybody dodges his attacks.
While technically my main character is the physically strongest character I have. He's also the weakest, because he can't hit shit.

I had to actually waste my time to mix & fuse high level demons SMT style, and then I had to slowly gain their loyalty before I was able to finally put up a fight with that Samyaza prick.
It's stuff like that, that makes me realize. I don't really see depth like that in SMT 4.

Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 1:46 am

Quote:

Almost no stupid bullshit (Save Dante, ugh).

I still remember the days when I constantly got into arguments every time I told people that Dante really isn't all that great in Nocturne, and only noobs who don't know how to play the game use him.
I mean come on. Dante's stats suck ass.

My Dante is maxed out at Level 99, and his stats are fucking pathetic.
Black Frost is only on level 76, and almost all of his stats are are maxed out at 40, or near there. It doesn't matter how you play the game.
Dante will always have a pathetic end game.
Dante is one of those characters who seems good, because he starts out good, but he's eventually outshone by the likes of the little snow man, Black Frost. (Evil Empire Jack Frost.)

Even that loser Futomimi who gets his ass whooped by Chiaki has way better stats than Dante.

Now look at Dante. He has the to be the weakest Lvl 99 that I ever seen.
The best thing about Dante is that he has a high critical hit rate, and he starts of with a lot of useful moves.
He's a pretty good character he's just nowhere near as good as everybody claims him to be.

Especially since my lvl 77 demons have stats that are equal to lvl. 99 Dante. (I'm not even sure how many levles I raised Dante since it stops counting once you get to 99.)

Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 10:04 am

Dude, you guys haven't seen a good game until you've played this one...